# Is religion the main reason for the Israel/Palestine conflict? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2012, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757 "2012-05-03T14:18:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/181 "2012-05-10T00:17:04Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yes Captain, but since we see that during the nascence of Palestinian Nationalism, one of its main figures also uses it for his political gains, there’s no such thing as a Palestinian. And Brazil’s deliberate unwillingness to learn anything about the history of the region unless he gets to ask increasingly bad faith fetch-quest questions just shows how unreal the Palestinians are. After all, if they were real, he would’ve been motivated to learn the history. But since he’s not, they aren’t. What’s actually hilarious about Brazzy’s rather ignorant claims is that while he insists that “Palestinians” are “invented” he seems to accept without a second thought the concept that “Arabs” are “real”. Anyone familiar with the Middle East knows that most of the Arabic-speaking people of the Middle East, until the 20th Century, saw the term “Arab” as a pejorative and would have been quite insulted being called it and insisted that their group identity derived either from their religion or the region they lived in. Nationalism was a recent addition to the Middle East and the concept of “Arab nationalism” was largely an invention of Christian Arabs to forge a coalition with Muslim Arabs. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/182 "2012-05-10T00:50:15Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Neither Canada and the US or Mexico and the US have serious disputes about the location of the border. But things like that have happened in other countries… Assuming that’s true, so what? It doesn’t change the facts that (1) “Palestinians” were recently invented; and (2) this was done (and continues to be done) for purposes of undermining Zionism. Even **FinnAgain** has admitted that his main example of “Palestinian” nationalism “cynically used nationalism as a weapon.” > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Since we see that during the nascence of Palestinian Nationalism, one of its main figures also uses it for his political gains, there’s no such thing as a Palestinian. Lol, nice strawman. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/183 "2012-05-10T00:59:02Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Assuming that’s true, so what? It doesn’t change the facts that (1) “Palestinians” were recently invented; So were “Americans”, “Canadians” and “Australians”. Incidentally, since you seem to be insisting that it’s wrong to refer to the Palestinians as being indigenous to the regions does that mean you’re also outraged at all the early Zionists who regularly referred to the Arabs as “natives”? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/184 "2012-05-10T00:59:17Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > What’s actually hilarious about Brazzy’s rather ignorant claims is that while he insists that “Palestinians” are “invented” he seems to accept without a second thought the concept that “Arabs” are “real”. Well, we see that the originators of Jewish Nationalism often used that as a weapon against the British and the Arabs. So there are no Israelis. And we see that the proponents of German Nationalism was used as a weapon against the German Confederacy. So there are no Germans. And Italian Nationalism was also used as a weapon which caused multiple revolutions. So there are no Italians. Something tells me that The Brazil I-don’t-wanna-View of History is, perhaps, not particularly rational. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/185 "2012-05-10T01:08:12Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Well, we see that the originators of Jewish Nationalism often used that as a weapon against the British and the Arabs. So there are no Israelis. Lol, another nice strawman. You can ignore the facts all you like, but that doesn’t change them. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/186 "2012-05-10T01:25:21Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It’s a Hamas spokesman on Al Jazeera TV ranting against Arab countries not helping Palestinians, claiming that “half the Palestinians are Egyptians and half are Saudis”, saying that every Palestinian can show that he came from Egypt, or Syria, or Yemen or Saudi Arabia, and thus those countries should send help to Palestinians, in his words, not so they can live well, but because they wage the Jihad. That reminds me of something else. After all it’s not like the [Israelis themselves haven’t made appeals to global Jewry.](http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/05/06/3094811/israeli-ambassador-michael-oren-calls-for-israel-support-respect-for-religious-pluralism) Why is calling on someone’s relations in Egypt and Saudi count as one thing, but calling on Jewish relations count as another? Or shall we accept the traditional nutjob position that Israel is really only a hub of Global Jewry much a some folks in this thread seem to be championing the absurdity that the Palestinians are really only a hub of Regional Arabism? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/187 "2012-05-10T01:36:22Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > That reminds me of something else. After all it’s not like the [Israelis themselves haven’t made appeals to global Jewry.](http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/05/06/3094811/israeli-ambassador-michael-oren-calls-for-israel-support-respect-for-religious-pluralism) Why is calling on someone’s relations in Egypt and Saudi count as one thing, but calling on Jewish relations count as another? Or shall we accept the traditional nutjob position that Israel is really only a hub of Global Jewry much a some folks in this thread seem to be championing the absurdity that the Palestinians are really only a hub of Regional Arabism? Because Israelis do not pretend that all the Jews (or even the majority of Jews) living in Israel now have been living there for centuries - although, in fact, there has been a continuous Jewish presence in the area for 3500+ years. Palestinians and their apologists, though, including in this thread, constantly assert that the Palestinians living there now are not an ingathering of Arabs from surrounding countries, but are (and I quote from this thread) “the same people who have owned and used the land for 1500-plus years”. Which is complete bunk. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/188 "2012-05-10T01:40:45Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Because Israelis do not pretend that all the Jews (or even the majority of Jews) living in Israel now have been living there for centuries - although, in fact, there has been a continuous Jewish presence in the area for 3500+ years. There has also been a continuous non-Jewish presence there for 3500+ years. And don’t think that there’s an absence of bullshit on the Israeli side. I trust you’ve heard of \*From Time Immemorial? \* > [@Terr](#): > > Palestinians and their apologists, though, including in this thread, constantly assert that the Palestinians living there now are not an ingathering of Arabs from surrounding countries, but are (and I quote from this thread) “the same people who have owned and used the land for 1500-plus years”. Which is complete bunk. Yes, of course that’s bullshit. But that doesn’t make them “Egyptian” or “Saudi” or “Syrian” or what have you any more than it makes the Israelis “German” and “Russian” and “Ethopean”. The Palestinians are an ethnonational group carved out of the chaos of the death throes of the Ottoman Empire. They’re not any less real as a population group just because they drew their stock from various other Arab population groups, or because they still hold ties to them. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/189 "2012-05-10T03:32:32Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Assuming that’s true, so what? It doesn’t change the facts that (1) “Palestinians” were recently invented; and (2) this was done (and continues to be done) for purposes of undermining Zionism. Well, “Palestinians” were recently invented, if by recently, you mean the 1920s and 30s. That’s when you started seeing a concrete “Palestinian Arab” identity, distinct from a “Syrian” one (Before that, a lot of Palestinian Arabs saw themselves as Southern Syrian, but the partition into the French and British Mandate and the Faisal–Weizmann agreement, which Arab leaders in Palestine saw as a selling out, caused them to start developing a separate identity. As to it being done to undermine Zionism, I don’t think that’s what happened. I think that in Palestine, you saw two mutually exclusive competing nationalisms that were by their nature opposed; Zionism, which wanted a Jewish state in all of Palestine, and Palestinian nationalism, which wanted an Arab state in all of Palestine. It’s not that Palestinian nationalism was created to undermine Zionism. It’s that Palestinian leaders saw, probably correctly, Zionism as an obstacle to creating an Arab state encompassing the whole of Palestine. Zionism had to be opposed, Palestinian leaders saw, because the Zionists wanted what the Palestinians saw as their land. Actual ownership issues aside (because in a lot of cases, the land that Arabs farmed was owned by absentee landowners or the state), the Arabs saw the land they farmed as “their land”, and saw the immigrating Jews (most of whom did buy the land legally, either directly, or through the Jewish Agency) as invaders. Of course, after the formation of Israel, the neighboring states used this Palestinian nationalism as a weapon against Israel, and manipulated the hell out of the Palestinian refugees for their own cynical purposes. But that couldn’t have happened without an existing sense of Palestinian identity and grievance for them to manipulate. Don’t get me wrong. I’m a supporter of Israel, as I think anybody who reads these boards will know. I fully think the founding of Israel was a good thing, a right thing, and a necessary thing. But that doesn’t mean that I don’t realize that the circumstances around its founding was, for many people, a human tragedy. The Palestinians call the founding of Israel and the flight of the Palestinians out of Israel, the _Nakba_, the catastrophe, and for a lot of them, it was. They lost their homes and the hope of ever really returning to them. They became an exiled people. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with acknowledging that. It’s like the philosopher Hegel defined war: > [@](#): > > Each party bases its own behaviour on rights and accuses the other of infringing a right. . . The public takes sides, each party claims it has right on its side, and both parties are right; for it is precisely the rights themselves which come into contradiction with each other. . .Thus, war or some other means must now decide — not which of the rights asserted by the two parties is the genuine right (for both parties have a genuine right), but which right should give way to the other. War or some other means must decide the issue, precisely because both contradictory rights are equally true; hence a third factor — i.e. war — must make them unequal so that they can be reconciled, and this occurs when one gives way to the other. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/190 "2012-05-10T03:49:21Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Of course, after the formation of Israel, the neighboring states used this Palestinian nationalism as a weapon against Israel, and manipulated the hell out of the Palestinian refugees for their own cynical purposes. But that couldn’t have happened without an existing sense of Palestinian identity and grievance for them to manipulate. To be fair, during the Arab Riots its was also used as a weapon against the Jews in the region, but that doesn’t mean that Palestinian Nationalism didn’t exist at the time. In fact it was the Grand Mufti’s bloody purges that allowed him to direct the course of PN (for a time) but the sentiment and the philosophy were already in existence and were hijacked, rather than created, by the Mufti. Unfortunately Brazil lacks a basic understanding of the history of that period, and seems resistant to doing anything more than tossing out disingenuous fetch-quests and unreasonable burdens of proof so that he can claim nobody has provided him with evidence. The clan-based infighting among the Palestinians prevented the formation of a leadership council which was comparable to the Jews’, but that doesn’t mean that there was no comparable movement among the Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/191 "2012-05-10T09:18:22Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > As to it being done to undermine Zionism, I don’t think that’s what happened. I think that in Palestine, you saw two mutually exclusive competing nationalisms that were by their nature opposed; Zionism, which wanted a Jewish state in all of Palestine, and Palestinian nationalism, which wanted an Arab state in all of Palestine. It’s not that Palestinian nationalism was created to undermine Zionism. It’s that Palestinian leaders saw, probably correctly, Zionism as an obstacle to creating an Arab state encompassing the whole of Palestine. Zionism had to be opposed, I don’t understand the distinction you are trying to draw here. You seem to agree that the concept of “Palestinian” meaning a certain group of Arabs came out in the 20th century. What in your view was the cause of this phenomenon? Was it to oppose Zionism? If not, then what was it? > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Unfortunately Brazil lacks a basic understanding of the history of that period, Then by all means, advise me of what important historical facts you feel I am missing. That’s a part of debating - actually citing facts to support your position. It looks to me like you are just inventing excuses for your reluctance to actually back up your claims. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/192 "2012-05-10T09:24:24Z")
Excuse me but, if we were to take **Brazil** ’s reasoning to heart, wouldn’t that follow that as “Israeli” is an even more recent construct, they don’t exist? Or at least that Palestinians lived there since the 1920’s. Before the Israelis who have only lived there since 1948. Plus that the claim that “they” lived there 2000 years ago (and therefore have any rights to the land) is even more absurd. How many Israelis can produce lineage of their family living there before 1920? I thought Brazil was Pro-Israel ??? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/193 "2012-05-10T09:24:47Z")
> [@](#): > > They became an exiled people. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with acknowledging that. I don’t think so either, but at the same time it should be kept in mind that between 1940 and 1950, millions of people all over the world were displaced. Hundreds of thousands of Jews were chased out of the Arab world; hundreds of thousands of ethnic Germans were expelled from Eastern Europe; and so on. With a few exceptions, the descendants of these unfortunates were eventually absorbed into their host countries. (Indeed, I was just reading that nearly half the Jewish population of Israel are descended from Jews who were chased out of Arab countries in the late 40s) As far as I know, the main exception is the group known as “Palestinians.” ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/194 "2012-05-10T09:32:00Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Excuse me but, if we were to take **Brazil** ’s reasoning to heart, wouldn’t that follow that as “Israeli” is an even more recent construct, Sure, so what? > [@](#): > > Or at least that Palestinians lived there since the 1920’s. Before the Israelis who have only lived there since 1948. FWIW the first “Palestinian” declaration of independence was in 1988. > [@](#): > > I thought Brazil was Pro-Israel ??? I am very much so. I suppose I will state my position again: Groups get invented all the time. My objection to “Palestinian” is that the group was invented (and continues to be used) for destructive purposes. ETA: As I stated earlier, I would completely support a Palestinian state if it were being set up for constructive purposes: > [@Brazil84](#): > > Absolutely [I would support a Palestinian state] if it were set up for constructive purposes and not as a step towards destroying Israel. > > i.e. if it were credibly announced that (1) “Palestine” would grant citizenship and residency to all Palestinian Arabs just like Israel welcomes all Jews; (2) any Jews who happen to be living in “Palestine” would be entitled to claim citizenship and residency; (3) “Palestine” would allow Jews reasonable access to holy places; and (4) “Palestine” would immediately seek peace and friendship with all neighboring states, including Israel, then I would support an independent “Palestine.” ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/195 "2012-05-10T09:53:57Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Excuse me but, if we were to take **Brazil** ’s reasoning to heart, wouldn’t that follow that as “Israeli” is an even more recent construct, they don’t exist? His argument isn’t about reasoning. He’s picked a wilfully ignorant position and he’s defending it with fundamentally unsavory non-debate tactics. It’s a bit reminiscent of a Creationist debate, actually. Much like he’s made up the fantasy that Palestinian Nationalism was somehow produced to attack Jews/Zionists/Israel/whatever, but can’t actually prove that. And despite all the evidence that been provided to the contrary, he keeps trying to find new non-reasons to remain ignorant. “Okay, so we’ve found the link between Homo sapiens and an ancestor a few spots removed, but now we have two new gaps where there was once only one! Ah-hah, I’ve proven it, Palestinians aren’t a people!” It would be trivially easy to read up on the history of Palestinian society in, say, the 1920’s and 1930’s, but even when presented with the evidence he’s deliberately choosing not to and demanding that others do his thinking and learning for him, while he casually rejects all evidence with patently manufactured dodges. I mean, sure, there was a movement for Palestinian Nationalism that the Grand Mufti murdered his way to prominence within, but the fact that he used his influence for bad purposes just shows us that…\* hey look over there!\* You can see [the same sort of unpalatable non-debate tactics in this thread](http://209.104.5.198/sdmb/showthread.php?t=623047). Before then, I’d never seen a disingenuous request for a citation. It’s really quite odd, a bit like ordering a ribeye so that you can have something weighty to throw on the floor, but you can see the same behavior in this thread. Found a citation that details the situation with multiple authors commenting on the phenomena? Well, can we take their word as gospel without analyzing the facts that they’re talking about? No? Well then, let’s ignore that cite and remain ignorant, yes? Same sort of behavior in the other thread. What, all the Jews, rabbis, temples and Jewish organizations agree that Jews can be atheists? Well… where’s an Authority on Judaism who says so? What’s that, there is no such thing as an Authority in Judaism? Told you so, there’s no proof that Jews can be atheists! > [@Latro](#): > > I thought Brazil was Pro-Israel ??? He’s anti-Palestinian, there’s a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/196 "2012-05-10T09:54:43Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Sure, so what? > > FWIW the first “Palestinian” declaration of independence was in 1988. For what it’s worth? Nothing. Your claim was that the ‘Palestinians’ were a recent construct. OK. That would be the 1920’s, then. That would _still_ mean they had lived there longer than the even more recent ‘Israelis’. So even if we follow your, ehem..logic, it would lead us nowhere. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/197 "2012-05-10T10:00:40Z")
> [@](#): > > That would be the 1920’s, then. I disagree since there is a difference between thinking of a particular group as a distinct people and formally declaring the existence of a state based on that group of people. The analogy would be as follows: “Palestinians”: “State of Palestine” :: “Jews” : “State of Israel” But anyway let’s assume for the sake of argument that you are correct. So what? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/198 "2012-05-10T10:02:28Z")
> [@](#): > > He’s picked a wilfully ignorant position and he’s defending it with fundamentally unsavory non-debate tactics. Nonsense, you are describing your own position and tactics. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > He’s anti-Palestinian, there’s a difference. What exactly does “anti-Palestinian” mean? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/199 "2012-05-10T10:03:28Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > For what it’s worth? > Nothing. > > Your claim was that the ‘Palestinians’ were a recent construct. > OK. That would be the 1920’s, then. > > That would _still_ mean they had lived there longer than the even more recent ‘Israelis’. > > So even if we follow your, ehem..logic, it would lead us nowhere. Not that I’m taking \*\*Brazil’s \*\*side in the argument, but please bear in mind that Israeli nationalism started long before 1948 - large-scale Jewish immigration started around 1900, and by 1947 there were some 750,000 Jews living in the Mandate. Tel Aviv, which was dubbed the First Hebrew City, celebrated its centennial three years ago. Of course, if this isn’t news to you, then I apologize for repeating facts you already know. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/200 "2012-05-10T10:11:44Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Not that I’m taking \*\*Brazil’s \*\*side in the argument, but please bear in mind that Israeli nationalism started long before 1948 - large-scale Jewish immigration started around 1900, and by 1947 there were some 750,000 Jews living in the Mandate. Tel Aviv, which was dubbed the First Hebrew City, celebrated its centennial three years ago. I would add that the idea of setting up a Jewish state in Palestine is much older than that. But the more fundamental distinction (in my opinion) is that the idea behind Israel was to set up a homeland and refuge for Jews. The idea behind “Palestine” is NOT to set up a homeland or refuge for “Palestinians.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757.md?page=11)