# Is religion the main reason for the Israel/Palestine conflict? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2012, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757 "2012-05-03T14:18:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/201 "2012-05-10T10:19:12Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > So even if we follow your, ehem..logic, it would lead us nowhere. As the man with the fish head said, “It’s a trap!” You are trying to reason someone out of a position he didn’t reason his way into. You cannot educate, let alone debate someone who is wilfully ignorant. Hell, he’s about 3/4 of a century off in terms of a Palestinian declaration of/demand for independence, which actually first occurred at the Third Palestinian Arab Congress in 1920. He doesn’t know the history, he doesn’t want to know the history. Jake, China Town, yadda yadda. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/202 "2012-05-10T10:41:18Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Hell, he’s about 3/4 of a century off It should be easy enough to show that the first “Palestinian” declaration of independence was in 1920 not 1988. I did a few google searches and could not find anything. I think you are just making stuff up. But of course if anyone asks you for a cite/quote/link, you will no doubt dismiss it as a “fetch quest” ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/203 "2012-05-10T10:47:53Z")
By the way, the Wikipedia article on “State of Palestine” says nothing (as far as I can tell) about a Palestinian declaration of independence in 1920. [cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine) Of course, Wikipedia has been known to be wrong. But if I have a choice between Wikipedia and an anonymous guy on the internet who refuses to back up his claims, I’m inclined to go with Wikipedia. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/204 "2012-05-10T11:02:48Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > FWIW the first “Palestinian” declaration of independence was in 1988. The All-Palestine Government of 1948? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/205 "2012-05-10T11:07:30Z")
Readers should note that a Google search for “Third Palestinian Arab Congress” has, in the first 9 hits, two google ebooks (including one opaquely named _The Origins of Palestinian Nationalism_) and a link to [procon.org](http://procon.org). Fully 1/3 of the first 9 hits have perfectly adequate answers, I haven’t checked the rest so it may be higher than 1/3. And yet, Brazil tells us that he can find none. Curiouser and curiouser. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/206 "2012-05-10T11:25:08Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The All-Palestine Government of 1948? I’m not sure what you are referring to. Can you give more specifics? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/207 "2012-05-10T11:25:54Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The All-Palestine Government of 1948? Want to bet he’s never heard of it? Edit: Simulpost. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/208 "2012-05-10T11:33:16Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Readers should note that a Google search for “Third Palestinian Arab Congress” has, in the first 9 hits, two google ebooks (including one opaquely named _The Origins of Palestinian Nationalism_) and a link to [procon.org](http://procon.org). Fully 1/3 of the first 9 hits have perfectly adequate answers, Here is from the first hit: > [@](#): > > The third congress was held in Haifa in December 1920. The forty-eight delegates elected an executive committee (the Arab Executive), with a permanent secretariat based in Jerusalem; Musa Kazim al-Husayni headed it. The scion of a leading Jerusalem family, he had been removed by the British as mayor after riots in the spring of 1920. The congress and executive committee were dominated by middle-aged men from ranking Muslim and Christian landowning and merchant families, but younger, more radical politicians also participated - those who had returned home from Damascus in July 1920, after the French had overthrown Amir Faisal and established their mandate over Syria. In Palestine, a civil administration was established under Herbert Samuel, a British Zionist. The congress’s resolutions omitted references to unity with Syria, but maintained firm opposition to Zionism, insisting that Palestine gain its independence as an Arab state. The resolutions appealed to the British sense of justice and fair play, in the hope that the pro-Zionist policies could be modified. Nothing about a declaration of independence. But clear indication of “firm opposition to Zionism.” From the second hit: > [@](#): > > The third congress was held in Haifa in December 1920. The forty-eight delegates elected an executive committee (the Arab Executive), with a permanent secretariat based in Jerusalem; Musa Kazim al-Husayni headed it. The scion of a leading Jerusalem family, he had been removed by the British as mayor after riots in the spring of 1920. The congress and executive committee were dominated by middle-aged men from ranking Muslim and Christian landowning and merchant families, but younger, more radical politicians also participated - those who had returned home from Damascus in July 1920, after the French had overthrown Amir Faisal and established their mandate over Syria. In Palestine, a civil administration was established under Herbert Samuel, a British Zionist. The congress’s resolutions omitted references to unity with Syria, but maintained firm opposition to Zionism, insisting that Palestine gain its independence as an Arab state. The resolutions appealed to the British sense of justice and fair play, in the hope that the pro-Zionist policies could be modified. Again, no declaration of independence, clear indication of “opposition to Zionism” From the third hit: > [@](#): > > "In January, 1919, the leading Palestinian families organized a Palestinian Arab conference under the auspices of the Jaffa and Jerusalem Muslim-Christian Associations. Despite some sentiment for Palestinian autonomy under British guidance, including that of Jerusalem’s Arif al-Dajani, who presided over the proceedings, a consensus emerged to support Faysal’s ambition [to be king of greater Syria]. Zionism was strongly rejected; Palestine would remain an Arab country as part of a federated, Faysal-led Syria… > > At the Third Arab Congress, held in Haifa in December, 1920, they [Palestinian notables] revived the plan that Arif al-Dajani and some of the other older notables had proposed in the country-wide conference of January, 1919. That plan had stressed the autonomy of the Palestinian Arabs and their unique circumstances." > > . . . . > > “The first [Palestinian Congress] which met in Jerusalem in January 1919, had voted for unity with Syria. ‘We see Palestine as part of Arab Syria,’ it resolved, ‘and it should not be separated from the independent Syrian Arab government.’ A so-called Second Congress never actually took place. The third, meeting in Haifa in December 1920, called upon the British to establish a ‘native government’ and representative assembly. It made no mention of ‘Southern Syria’ and dropped the demand for unity of Palestine and Syria. The Fourth Congress, meeting in Jerusalem in May 1921, spoke of ‘the Arab people of Palestine’ with no mention of southern Syria – though subsequent congresses generally paid lip service to the idea of Arab unity… Alongside Syrians, Iraqis, and Egyptians, a Palestinian people was emerging.” No declaration of independence. Clear opposition to Zionism. > [@](#): > > Curiouser and curiouser. Indeed. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/209 "2012-05-10T11:36:15Z")
Edit: Does anyone besides **Finnagain** wish to dispute my assertion that “the first ‘Palestinian’ declaration of independence was in 1988.”? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/210 "2012-05-10T11:43:11Z")
Again, readers should be aware of what’s occurring in this thread. Take note, in particular, of Brazil’s third quote. In black and white it details how the Third Palestinian Arab Congress adopted a resolution calling for Palestinian autonomy, a ‘native government’ and representative assembly. Note, also, he has [answers.com](http://answers.com) as one of his resources, but for some reason still has not managed to read the ebooks. And evidently he could find none of these before during his exhaustive searching, and following requests were not disingenuous fetch-quests. Nope. Let it be said, at least, that those of us who are generally labelled as pro-Israel on the Dope are not unwilling to police awful arguments cast forward by anti-Palestinians whose arcs may appear tangential to ours. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/211 "2012-05-10T12:10:27Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Edit: > > Does anyone besides **Finnagain** wish to dispute my assertion that “the first ‘Palestinian’ declaration of independence was in 1988.”? To quote someone in this thread: “So what?” Palestinian identity does not hinge on when someone wrote a declaration of independence. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/212 "2012-05-10T13:06:39Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Again, readers should be aware of what’s occurring in this thread. Take note, in particular, of Brazil’s third quote. In black and white it details how the Third Palestinian Arab Congress adopted a resolution calling for Palestinian autonomy, a ‘native government’ and representative assembly. Yes and note that there is no declaration of independence contained therein. Note also that there were serious proposals for a Jewish state in Palestine long before 1920. These facts are easily observed by anyone. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/213 "2012-05-10T13:15:54Z")
**FinnAgain** and **brazil84** , you both need to stop “noting” what your opponent has or has not posted. Make your own points and just let the reader decide which of you is closer to the mark. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/214 "2012-05-10T13:17:32Z")
And in that spirit, **brazil84** , just what is your point? Are you merely niggling over the dates of various declarations, or are you asserting that the Palestinian national identity movement was created in 1948, or something else? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/215 "2012-05-10T13:26:07Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Make your own points and just let the reader decide which of you is closer to the mark. Roger dodger. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/216 "2012-05-10T13:47:44Z")
This whole debate is the flipside to the debate over the supposed “legitimacy” of Israel. Just as that debate invariably devolves into learned (but heated) exchanges over obscure topics like late 19th century Turkish land-use laws, this one devolves into learned (but heated) exchanges over various public declarations by nationalist groups, and ethnic migrations in the last century or two. The pointlessness of the exercise can easily be demonstrated by assuming, purely for the purpose of argument, that the most extreme position taken by each “side” contesting the “legitimacy” of the other was 100% correct. Would that really change anything? 1. Assume that those contesting Israeli “legitimacy” are correct and that the early Zionists had zero legal rights to the land they occupied. If this could be proved, would any Israelis pack their bags for (say) Poland and leave? 2. Now assume that those contesting Palestinan “legitimacy” are correct and Palestinian nationalism is a sham device invented purely as a weapon against Israel. If this could be proved, what would it mean for Palestinians currently living in the WB, Gaza Strip and various refugee camps? The point here is that, whatever the origins, we must deal with things as they are. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/217 "2012-05-10T14:26:30Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > And in that spirit, **brazil84** , just what is your point? Are you merely niggling over the dates of various declarations, or are you asserting that the Palestinian national identity movement was created in 1948, or something else? I’ve made a lot of points in this thread. My most recent response to **Finnagain** dealt with his dispute of my earlier assertion that the first Palestinian declaration of independence was in 1988. Actually he went further than disputing my assertion, contending that "He doesn’t know the history, he doesn’t want to know the history. " So perhaps you could call it counter-niggling. Anyway, my basic point about “Palestinian” idendity is that the concept of “Palestinians” was recently invented (and continues to be used) for the purpose of undermining Israel. I have no problem with the concept that groups and nations have been and are regularly invented. Indeed, I have clearly stated that I would support a Palestinian state if the credible evidence showed that it was being established for constructive purposes and not simply to undermine Israel. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/218 "2012-05-10T15:11:17Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > 1. Now assume that those contesting Palestinan “legitimacy” are correct and Palestinian nationalism is a sham device invented purely as a weapon against Israel. If this could be proved, what would it mean for Palestinians currently living in the WB, Gaza Strip and various refugee camps? I think it would mean a lot, since the pressure would start building on Arab governments to stop discriminating against Palestinians, to stop keeping them stateless generation after generation, and so on. > [@](#): > > Assume that those contesting Israeli “legitimacy” are correct and that the early Zionists had zero legal rights to the land they occupied. If this could be proved, would any Israelis pack their bags for (say) Poland and leave? I would say definitely yes. And that more importantly it would undermine Israeli confidence in its position. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/219 "2012-05-10T15:14:16Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > To quote someone in this thread: “So what?” I think you need to ask yourself that question, since you are the one who seems to put significance on the fact that the concept of “Palestinians” started to develop before Israel was established as a state. > [@](#): > > Palestinian identity does not hinge on when someone wrote a declaration of independence. Agreed. (Of course the same holds true for Jewish identity.) ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/220 "2012-05-10T15:28:10Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > …since you are the one who seems to put significance on the fact that the concept of “Palestinians” started to develop before Israel was established as a state. …\*chrstfx#…does not compute… WHAT? WHO put significance on the concept of “Palestinian” being a recent construct?? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757.md?page=12)