# Is religion the main reason for the Israel/Palestine conflict? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2012, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757 "2012-05-03T14:18:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/241 "2012-05-12T18:15:13Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Clearly that’s not true, with Jewish nationalism being an excellent counter-example. How is that a counterexample? Are you arguing that the Zionists didn’t conceive of Israel as a Jewish state? I mean, you’re sort of going all over the board here, so lets focus on that for now. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/242 "2012-05-12T18:41:22Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > How is that a counterexample? Are you arguing that the Zionists didn’t conceive of Israel as a Jewish state? No, I am pointing out that the Zionists were willing to have an Arab state in Palestine sitting next to their Jewish state. However, the Palestinian Nationalists were unwilling to have a Jewish state in Palestine next to their Arab state. According to you the Palestinian Nationalists were “maximalist.” > [@](#): > > I mean, you’re sort of going all over the board here, so lets focus on that for now. I would prefer that you try to answer my other questions if you are able. According to you, and if I understand you correctly, the Palestinian Nationalists did not want anyone to have control of any part of Palestine besides themselves. If this is true, then surely they would have gone to great lengths to end the Jordanian occupation of the West Bank after 1948 and the Egyptian occupation of Gaza after 1948. Did they go to such great lengths? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/243 "2012-05-12T23:02:52Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I would prefer that you try to answer my other questions if you are able. > > According to you, and if I understand you correctly, the Palestinian Nationalists did not want anyone to have control of any part of Palestine besides themselves. If this is true, then surely they would have gone to great lengths to end the Jordanian occupation of the West Bank after 1948 and the Egyptian occupation of Gaza after 1948. Did they go to such great lengths? This is an exceedingly ignorant question. The Palestinians weren’t in a position to do so at that time. In the 70s they were able to do so and launched the Black September revolt against Jordan. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/244 "2012-05-13T14:09:04Z")
Unfortunately, Black September has already been discussed, to no avail. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > It was Egyptian and Jordanian actions which crushed any Palestinian statehood, but the idea that Palestinian nationalism was an invention to destroy Israel is still false. Black September speaks to that fact and should remind many people, especially those who claim that Israel took the majority of the Mandate, that Transjordan held, and Jordan now holds, the supermajority of territory involved. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/245 "2012-05-13T14:47:20Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > It was Egyptian and Jordanian actions which crushed any Palestinian statehood, That makes no sense at all. Black September was back in the 70s. There have been a lot of efforts since then towards “Palestinian Statehood.” Clearly “Palestinian Statehood” has not been crushed. ETA:Most of the “Levant” consists of what is now known as Syria, no? And the “Palestinian Nationalism” you refer to did not apply to that area, right? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/246 "2012-05-13T15:11:10Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > That makes no sense at all. Proving, yet again, that you lack even a basic understanding of the events involved in this discussion. If you honestly do not understand how Palestinian self-determination was crushed by Egypt and Jordan invading non-Israeli territory and claiming it as theirs, then you don’t even understand the roughest outlines of what happened in '48. You have been shown to be ignorant on basic matters of fact, to apply bogus logical claims to cover up a lack of factual and contextual knowledge, to continually try to change the topic with bad faith fetch-quests when caught on one of your errors (see your bullshit fetch-quest above about Syria and the Levant), and that you are not dissuaded from holding forth on an issue by lacking a basic working historical knowledge. When the board’s Dopers who are capable of advancing cogent, knowledgeable pro and anti-Zionist positions all agree that your anti-Palestinian argument is full of shit, it’s time to back down and admit error. Or, at least, stop posting. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/247 "2012-05-13T15:22:16Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Proving, yet again, that you lack even a basic understanding of the events involved in this discussion. Seems to me that you are the one proving something about the merits of your position by substituting insults for actual evidence or arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/248 "2012-05-13T16:11:49Z")
Palestinians did assassinate Abdullah of Jordan, you know. Palestinian-Jordanian relations weren’t all sweetness and light. But part of the reason there wasn’t more resistance against Jordanian control of the West Bank in the 50s and 60s was: 1. Palestinian nationalism had always been an urban and middle class phenomenon. Most of the peasants of the West Bank were focused more on family relationships. 2. The Jordanians bought off a lot of Palestinian leaders 3. The Palestinian refugees who had been dispossessed were obviously pissed off by that, and most of their energy went into trying to find ways to get back home and get the Israelis out of there. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/249 "2012-05-13T18:20:55Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Palestinians did assassinate Abdullah of Jordan, you know. Here’s what Wikipedia says about that: > [@](#): > > The Palestinian gunman, motivated by revenge for Jordan’s occupation of the West Bank, fired three fatal bullets into the King’s head and chest No, just kidding. Here’s what Wikipedia actually says: > [@](#): > > The Palestinian gunman, motivated by fears that the old king would make a separate peace with **Israel** , fired three fatal bullets into the King’s head and chest (my bolding) Wow, you’d almost think there was some kind of pattern. > [@](#): > > But part of the reason there wasn’t more resistance against Jordanian control of the West Bank in the 50s and 60s was: You can offer excuses all day long. But at a certain point, Occam’s Razor comes into play. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/250 "2012-05-13T18:52:50Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > You can offer excuses all day long. But at a certain point, Occam’s Razor comes into play. I suspect that you would like to use this Band-Aid™ after trying to wield Occam’s Razor. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/251 "2012-05-13T18:57:29Z")
So not only were you totally ignorant of the event, you decided that an uncited claim on Wikipedia would be a great resource to clear up your ignorance. And, lo and behold, you again arrived at the conclusion that the Palestinians, who don’t exist in your world, just wanted to attack Israel. And, of course, we know that you’ve presented a good faith argument, because it’s not like you’ve handwaved away facts by stating that if you can’t rely on an author’s statement as gospel truth without checking primary sources, we should discard those facts. Or, if you had said that, then obviously Wikipedia is such a source that can be believed as the gospel truth with no confirmation. Of course, as this represents yet another historical issue that you’re ignorant of, [you probably should be educated](http://books.google.com/books?ei=ZgGwT9DrGafD2QWZtrzqCA&id=yUGYsBRpqPkC&dq=King+Abdullah++1951&ots=apIMWFW68i&q=shot#v=snippet&q=shot&f=false). > [@](#): > > There was an element of cover-up in the conduct of the trial. The grievances and frustrations of the accused were not broached. The deliberate gloss on that topic was necessary for political reasons, stemming from the structure of Jordan at that moment. Although there was immense tension between Transjordanians and Palestinians because many Palestinians felt Abdullah had got his just deserts, Palestinians had no political alternative to continued life within the Jordanian framework. Their communal life in 1951 was too tentative to explore past injustices and the future possibilities of redress. The idea of an independent Palestine was, for the moment, dead. Abdullah’s assassination was a terrible revenge wreaked for the death of that idea… Not that any of us really expect you to retract your errors, but there are folks reading along who shouldn’t be fooled by your absurd tactics. And those of us who actually value truth and clarity in this discussion would probably all rather than crypto-racist views of the Palestinians don’t gain any currency in the debate. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/252 "2012-05-13T19:07:52Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > So not only were you totally ignorant of the event, Yawn. Still waiting for even a shred of evidence that there was a Palestinian declaration of independence before 1988. Or for you to concede that the “Levant” includes Syria. Ignorance, indeed. > [@](#): > > There was an element of cover-up in the conduct of the trial. The grievances and frustrations of the accused were not broached. Surely that means his motivation was to get Jordan out of the West Bank :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/253 "2012-05-13T19:52:18Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Still waiting for even a shred of evidence that there was a Palestinian declaration of independence before 1988. Ah. I suppose you’ve forgotten that not only did you already see evidence to that effect, but you cited and quoted it yourself… after you claimed that no such evidence existed and you knew that because you’d actually performed an exhaustive google search. Ah, how malleable memory is. Of course, one might wonder if your lapse in memory has anything to do with the fact that, yet again, you’ve been shown to be fundamentally ignorant on a topic and mistaken to boot. Readers less charitable than I might just wonder why it is that you’re attempting to change the subject with feeble dodges rather than admitting error and modifying your argument. Then again, readers less charitable than I might just wonder how it possibly is that you both believe that you can safely ignore any historian whose work can’t be treated as gospel truth and whose sources should be examined to verify their claims… and that you also cite uncited claims, from Wikipedia, to “prove” your points. Less charitable readers might wonder at that contradiction, and might question the overall nature of your argument. Not me. I’m full of charity. Why, I can understand that it must be a real bitch to try to support a racist argument that’s false to facts, and that it must necessitate all sorts of tactics that one would have no need of if their argument wasn’t, ya know, racist bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/254 "2012-05-13T20:01:22Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Ah. I suppose you’ve forgotten that not only did you already see evidence to that effect, but you cited and quoted it yoursel Nonsense. Please show me where I did so. Please quote me. Failing that, please admit that I did no such thing and apologize. Your choice. > [@](#): > > , you’ve been shown to be fundamentally ignorant > [@](#): > > you’re attempting to change the subject with feeble dodges > [@](#): > > a racist argument that’s false to facts, > [@](#): > > racist bullshit. Lol, personal attacks might make you feel good but they don’t help your case. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/255 "2012-05-13T20:11:12Z")
Finn, back off on the personal remarks. Stick to simply pointing out errors of fact or logic and leave motivation out of the discussion. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/256 "2012-05-13T20:14:46Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Yawn. Still waiting for even a shred of evidence that there was a Palestinian declaration of independence before 1988. > > Or for you to concede that the “Levant” includes Syria. > > Ignorance, indeed. Neither of these points have a single thing to do with your claim. You appear to be trying to avoid the issue by persisting in raising non-issues. Regardless when some formal declaration was issued, there has been quite a bit of evidence provided that the people now living on the West Bank were interested in an independent nation from the early 1920s at the latest. If you have no contradictory evidence to that point, just drop the whole topic. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/257 "2012-05-13T20:37:47Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Stick to simply pointing out errors of fact or logic and leave motivation out of the discussion. Fair enough, although I’d appreciate a bit of clarification via PM if you have the time. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/258 "2012-05-13T20:41:38Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Yawn. Still waiting for even a shred of evidence that there was a Palestinian declaration of independence before 1988. So you think that bloody three year long revolt staged against the British by the Arab Committee to kick out the British didn’t constitute a decleration of a desire for a Palestinian Arab State?:dubious: Please explain your logic. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/259 "2012-05-13T22:46:45Z")
[Or](http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=YRkNAQAAIAAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PR6&dq=palestinian+nationalism&ots=p9X15I0PjN&sig=6gNHinO0kb1711WKztxO7pJ5oY8#v=onepage&q=proto-nationalism&f=false) > [@](#): > > The modern ideology of nationalism crystallised in Palestine in the early part of the twentieth century. It is often claimed that Palestinian identity and nationalism emerged as a reaction against Zionism, the encounter with Jewish immigration and the political processes at hand during the British mandate. As has already been underlined, it is true that Palestinianism is unusually clearly formulated in entanglement with its main significant ‘other’: ‘Zionism’, ‘Israel’ and expressions of Israeli Jewish collective identity. However, the emergence of Palestinianism must also be understood in the context of the spread of nationalism in the region at large (cf. Khalidi, 1997). > […] > In its early life, Arabism had only marginal appeal in Palestine (cf. Porath. 1974: 20ff.). During the Arab revolt most leaders in Palestine continued to identify with Ottomanism and quiescently supported the Young Turks, although hajj Amin al-Husayni (the importance of whom will be discussed below) was to join the Arab Revolt (Mattar, 1998: 12). Muslih argues that Palestinian nationalism or patriotism began to take shape into the 1910s, and that it was easier for the Palestine Arab elite at the time to subscribe to local patriotism than to the Arab nationalist framework, due to the interconnectedness between Ottomanism and the Palestinian elite > […] > At the Third Arab Congress (which took place in Haifa), no reference was made to a Greater Syria. Thus by 1920, when King Feysal’s rule of Syria was shattered, Palestinian nationalism and the idea of an independent Palestine had gained the upper hand over Arab natinoalism among the local elite (Lesch, 1979; Muslih, 1988: 201), and a romantic nationalist rhetoric emphasising the ‘love’ of Palestine was being nurtured (Khalidi, 1997: 168 ff.). This was the first time that the Palestine Arabs had declared the goal of establishing a national government (Porath, 1974: 46). ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2012, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/260 "2012-05-13T23:04:43Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > [Or](http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=YRkNAQAAIAAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PR6&dq=palestinian+nationalism&ots=p9X15I0PjN&sig=6gNHinO0kb1711WKztxO7pJ5oY8#v=onepage&q=proto-nationalism&f=false) Nothing in there about a declaration of independence. Here’s what I said before: > [@](#): > > FWIW the first “Palestinian” declaration of independence was in 1988. I realize you really wish I had said that the first calls or demands for a “Palestinian State” were in 1988. Because then I would be wrong. But your wishes cannot substitute for reality. I said what I actually said – not what you would like to pretend that I said. If you look back at the thread, you will see that the distinction is important, since **Latro** was ascribing significance to the date when Israel formally declared its independence – as opposed to the date when there were calls for a Jewish state in Palestine. Anyway, since you insist on responding to what you imagine or wish I had said and not what I actually said, this exchange is concluded. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757.md?page=14)