# Is religion the main reason for the Israel/Palestine conflict? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2012, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757 "2012-05-03T14:18:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/61 "2012-05-06T21:43:10Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Jews were there for thousands of years (say almost 4000). 200 years ago there were almost no Arabs in Palestine . . . 😕 What would you call the people who **were** living there? They were the ancestors of today’s Palestinians, and they spoke Arabic, and had been speaking Arabic since not long after Muhammad. (Before that, they spoke Greek or Aramaic.) And, yes, [they are closely related to the Jews.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people#DNA_and_genetic_studies) > [@](#): > > **DNA and genetic studies** > > In genetic genealogy studies, Negev Bedouins have the highest rates of Haplogroup J1 (Y-DNA) among all populations tested (62.5%) followed by the Palestinian Arab 38.4%, Ashkenazi Jew 14.6%, and Sephardi Jew 11.9% according to Semino and colleagues.[citation needed] Semitic populations, including Jews, usually possess an excess of J1 Y chromosomes compared to other populations harboring Y-haplogroup J.[98][99][100][101][102] The haplogroup J1, associated with marker M267, originates south of the Levant and was first disseminated from there into Ethiopia and Europe in Neolithic times. In Jewish populations J1 has a rate of around 15%, with haplogroup J2 (M172) (of eight sub-Haplogroups) being almost twice as common as J1 among Jews (\<29%). J1 is most common in the southern Levant, as well as Syria, Iraq, Algeria, and Arabia, and drops sharply at the border of non-semitic areas like Turkey and Iran. A second diffusion of the J1 marker took place in the 7th century CE when Arabians brought it from Arabia to North Africa.[98] > > Haplogroup J1 (Y-DNA) includes the modal haplotype of the Galilee Arabs[103] and of Moroccan Arabs[104] and the sister Modal Haplotype of the Cohanim, the “Cohan Modale Haplotype”, representing the descendents of the priestly caste Aaron.[105][106][107] J2 is known to be related to the ancient Greek movements and is found mainly in Europe and the central Mediterranean (Italy, the Balkans, Greece). > > A study found that the Palestinians, like Jordanians, Syrians, Iraqis, and Bedouins have what appears to be substantial gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa, amounting to 10-15% of lineages within the past three millennia.[108] > > According to a 2002 study by Nebel and colleagues[109] the highest frequency of Eu10 (i.e. J1) (30%–62.5%) has been observed so far in various Muslim Arab populations in the Middle East.[110][111] The term “Arab,” as well as the presence of Arabs in the Syrian desert and the Fertile Crescent, is first seen in the Assyrian sources from the 9th century BCE (Eph’al 1984).[112] > > In recent years, many genetic surveys have suggested that, at least paternally, most of the various Jewish ethnic divisions and the Palestinians – and in some cases other Levantines – are genetically closer to each other than the Palestinians or European Jews to non-Jewish Europeans.[103] > > One DNA study by Nebel found genetic evidence in support of historical records that “part, or perhaps the majority” of Muslim Palestinians descend from “local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who had converted after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century AD”.[103] They also found substantial genetic overlap between Muslim Palestinians and Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews, though with some significant differences that might be explainable by the geographical isolation of the Jews or by immigration of Arab tribes in the first millennium.[103] ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/62 "2012-05-06T21:48:48Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I’m skeptical of this claim . . . . do you have a cite? > > And assuming it’s true, why should that bar them from citizenship in other Arab countries? It shouldn’t, but it should add weight to their claim to be a non-“invented” ethnicity. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/63 "2012-05-06T21:49:51Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > And by the way, here is the kicker: > > If the “Palestinians” get their “Palestinian State,” one might think that it would offer citizenship to “Palestinians” in the same way that Israel offers citizenship to Jews. > > Not so: > > Even if those “refugees” happen to be living on the West Bank, they will not get citizenship! > > [cite](http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Politics/2011/Sep-15/148791-interview-refugees-will-not-be-citizens-of-new-state.ashx#axzz1u7n0eKpR) That sounds like a compromise-retreat from the “Palestinian Law of Return” position. You’d be screaming blue murder if they stuck to that line, wouldn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/64 "2012-05-06T22:19:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 What would you call the people who **were** living there? They were the ancestors of today’s Palestinians, and they spoke Arabic, and had been speaking Arabic since not long after Muhammad. (Before that, they spoke Greek or Aramaic.) No, as I showed you above, most of “today’s Palestinians” are not descended from those who lived there 200 years ago. Also, the population 200 years ago was very sparse - maybe 100-150K or so, mostly in Jerusalem. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/65 "2012-05-06T22:24:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, as I showed you above, most of “today’s Palestinians” are not descended from those who lived there 200 years ago. Also, the population 200 years ago was very sparse - maybe 100-150K or so, mostly in Jerusalem. About double that. From wikipedia: > [@](#): > > According to Alexander Scholch, the population of Palestine in 1850 had about 350,000 inhabitants, 30% of whom lived in 13 towns; roughly 85% were Muslims, 11% were Christians and 4% Jews[49] ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/66 "2012-05-06T22:26:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > About double that. From wikipedia: 1850 was not 200 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/67 "2012-05-06T22:34:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > 1850 was not 200 years ago. Are you saying that you think the population doubled in 38 years? Here’s what wikipedia says about 500 years ago: > [@](#): > > In the middle of the 1st century of the Ottoman rule, i.e. 1550 AD, Bernard Lewis in a study of Ottoman registers of the early Ottoman Rule of Palestine reports:[48] > From the mass of detail in the registers, it is possible to extract something like a general picture of the economic life of the country in that period. Out of a total population of about 300,000 souls… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/68 "2012-05-06T22:36:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, as I showed you above, most of “today’s Palestinians” are not descended from those who lived there 200 years ago. As I showed you in post #61, they are. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/69 "2012-05-06T22:49:21Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Yeah, it’s not as well documented, but almost as many Arabs immigrated to the Mandate during British rule as Jews. Mainly for economic reasons, I think. No doubt. But neither group was moving to an uninhabited province. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/70 "2012-05-06T23:05:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It shouldn’t, but it should add weight to their claim to be a non-“invented” ethnicity. I take it you have no cite for your claim that the “Palestinians” are mostly descended from people who have been living in that area forever while other Arabs are not? > [@](#): > > No doubt. But neither group was moving to an uninhabited province. I take it you are abandoning that claim now? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/71 "2012-05-06T23:07:27Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I take it you have no cite for your claim that the “Palestinians” are mostly descended from people who have been living in that area forever while other Arabs are not? Post #61. > [@brazil84](#): > > I take it you are abandoning that claim now? Why should I? **John Mace’s** cites back it up. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/72 "2012-05-06T23:07:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That sounds like a compromise-retreat from the “Palestinian Law of Return” position. You’d be screaming blue murder if they stuck to that line, wouldn’t you? I’m not sure what you are asking. If the Palestinian Arabs were to credibly announce that a “Palestinian State” would be open to immigration and citizenship for all “Palestinians,” it would give me a lot of hope that a bona fide peace is possible. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/73 "2012-05-06T23:10:50Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I’m not sure what you are asking. If the Palestinian Arabs were to credibly announce that a “Palestinian State” would be open to immigration and citizenship for all “Palestinians,” it would give me a lot of hope that a bona fide peace is possible. I thought you wanted those refugees to stay **out** of Palestine. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/74 "2012-05-06T23:11:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Post #61. I see nothing in that post which substantiates your claim. Can you quote the part of it which you feel does? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/75 "2012-05-06T23:11:51Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I’m not sure what you are asking. If the Palestinian Arabs were to credibly announce that a “Palestinian State” would be open to immigration and citizenship for all “Palestinians,” it would give me a lot of hope that a bona fide peace is possible. I thought you wanted those refugees to stay **out** of Palestine. And, you actually approve of an independent Palestinian state? You realize the Jews/Israelis would have to leave the WB, don’t you? Even if Israel annexes everything west of The Wall, that still leaves hundreds of thousands of Israelis on the east side of it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/76 "2012-05-06T23:13:07Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > As I showed you in post #61, they are. Sure. They just call themselves “Egyptian”, “Moroccan”, “Lebanese”, “Iraqi” for giggles. ---
**Author:** ![Ken001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/43a26b/32.png) [@Ken001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ken001)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/77 "2012-05-06T23:15:38Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Talking about this subject with other people and I feel like a bit of my ignorance is making me go in circles here. > > Some argue that there are land claims but those seem to end up being based on the religious reasons of those who are claiming the land. > > So, what am I missing and if it’s not religion based, what is the crux of the issue? No, the core reasons are not religious. Even Sven explains best, as below: > [@even\_sven](#): > > All conflicts are ultimately about land. When a society (defined loosely as all of the social systems in an area) has too many pressures on it (either through strained resources or large scale inequalities, or even just a need to create shared identities as part of the nation building process) it will start to crack. > > It will crack along whatever line is easiest- this may be by ethnicity, religion, language, or whatever. The “ethnic” conflict between the Tutsis and Hutus were between people who shared a language, culture, and gene pool…in other words, they shared everything that makes an “ethnicity” an ethnicity. But it was the most obvious crack in land-poor, politically unstable Rwanda, so that’s where it cracked. > > These cracks provide the breaking point, and they also provide the fuel. It’s hard to sell a land grab, but it’s easy to sell a higher cause. A lot of this stuff operates differently on different levels. Often the people on the ground have a very different understanding of the conflict than the people at the top. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/78 "2012-05-06T23:17:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Sure. They just call themselves “Egyptian”, “Moroccan”, “Lebanese”, “Iraqi” for giggles. I daresay most such names come from the Mandate-era immigrants **Alessan** referred to in post #60; but they, like the Jewish immigrants, were trivial in numbers compared to the population already there. The Palestinians are descendants of Jews. And Arabs. And Philistines. And Samaritans. And fucking **Canaanites.** Egyptians, Turks, Romans, Greeks, Crusaders, every nation or people that has ever settled in Palestine or conquered it or colonized it or passed through it to get somewhere else, that’s who the Palestinians are. But we Americans can hardly deny such a melting-pot people the rank of a “nation.” ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/79 "2012-05-06T23:19:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I thought you wanted those refugees to stay **out** of Palestine. And, you actually approve of an independent Palestinian state? Absolutely if it were set up for constructive purposes and not as a step towards destroying Israel. i.e. if it were credibly announced that (1) “Palestine” would grant citizenship and residency to all Palestinian Arabs just like Israel welcomes all Jews; (2) any Jews who happen to be living in “Palestine” would be entitled to claim citizenship and residency; (3) “Palestine” would allow Jews reasonable access to holy places; and (4) “Palestine” would immediately seek peace and friendship with all neighboring states, including Israel, then I would support an independent “Palestine.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/80 "2012-05-06T23:24:53Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Absolutely if it were set up for constructive purposes and not as a step towards destroying Israel. > > i.e. if it were credibly announced that (1) “Palestine” would grant citizenship and residency to all Palestinian Arabs just like Israel welcomes all Jews; **(2) any Jews who happen to be living in “Palestine” would be entitled to claim citizenship and residency;** (3) “Palestine” would allow Jews reasonable access to holy places; and (4) “Palestine” would immediately seek peace and friendship with all neighboring states, including Israel, then I would support an independent “Palestine.” One of these things is not like the others. One of these things just doesn’t belong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757.md?page=5)