# Is religion the main reason for the Israel/Palestine conflict? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2012, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757 "2012-05-03T14:18:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/161 "2012-05-09T03:05:20Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > It all strikes me as a clever way in which white people (Now, I know Israelis don’t think of themselves as white, **but take it from me** : they’re as white as wind-driven snow) justify their own brand of racism against brown people. This post is utterly moronic. For starters, what makes you think that Ashenazi Israelis don’t consider themselves white? Secondly, why do you insist that they are “as white as wind-driven snow” while the Palestinians are “brown people”? Have you ever been there or met them? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/162 "2012-05-09T05:39:38Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > . . . Lol, the popular fallback position of a Leftist with no substantive response: Accuse one’s opponent of racism. . . . I’m not sure the guy is a “leftist” in any way that today’s Progressives and Liberals would recognize! (I’m a liberal leftist…and I far more agree with you than with nearly anyone else posting on the subject!) ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/163 "2012-05-09T11:45:49Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’m not sure the guy is a “leftist” in any way that today’s Progressives and Liberals would recognize! Well it depends on how you define the word “Leftist,” of course. Which is way beyond the scope of this debate. > [@](#): > > I far more agree with you Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/164 "2012-05-09T13:40:26Z")
Deleted ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/165 "2012-05-09T13:46:17Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Dude, you really ought to do research before insulting people Especially since I already pointed out the Grand Mufti’s efforts on behalf of nationalism. That Brazil has no idea about that period in the I/P history is telling. I personally have very little time for debating with a poster who hasn’t taken the time to become informed on the issue but uses wilfully ignorant questioning in an attempt to fetch-quest an opponent into submission. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/166 "2012-05-09T16:10:27Z")
Very apropos: [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbuM91PeSOs) ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/167 "2012-05-09T16:15:48Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Especially since I already pointed out the Grand Mufti’s efforts on behalf of nationalism. Lol, here’s what you said about the Grand Mufti: > [@FinnAgain](#): > > certain political leaders cynically used nationalism as a weapon, like the Grand Mufti, You do realize, don’t you, that this supports my basic claim? > [@](#): > > I personally have very little time for debating with a poster who hasn’t taken the time to become informed on the issue but uses wilfully ignorant questioning in an attempt to fetch-quest an opponent into submission. Looks to me like if anyone’s posts are wilfully ignorant, its yours. Besides which, I asked you some very simple, basic questions which would be easy to answer if you had even the slightest idea what you were talking about. If you want to call that a “fetch-quest,” then so be it. Looks to me like you simply prefer not to back up your claims. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/168 "2012-05-09T16:34:27Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Very apropos: > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player\_embedded&v=CbuM91PeSOs](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CbuM91PeSOs) Can you sum up the information contained therein rather than posting a YouTube link? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/169 "2012-05-09T16:37:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Very apropos: > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player\_embedded&v=CbuM91PeSOs](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CbuM91PeSOs) Agree. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/170 "2012-05-09T16:43:52Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Can you sum up the information contained therein rather than posting a YouTube link? It’s a Hamas spokesman on Al Jazeera TV ranting against Arab countries not helping Palestinians, claiming that “half the Palestinians are Egyptians and half are Saudis”, saying that every Palestinian can show that he came from Egypt, or Syria, or Yemen or Saudi Arabia, and thus those countries should send help to Palestinians, in his words, not so they can live well, but because they wage the Jihad. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/171 "2012-05-09T16:57:35Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It’s a Hamas spokesman on Al Jazeera TV Apparently it was on Egyptian television. I wonder if Egyptians were able to understand his Palestinian dialect. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/172 "2012-05-09T17:31:03Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It’s a Hamas spokesman on Al Jazeera TV ranting against Arab countries not helping Palestinians, claiming that “half the Palestinians are Egyptians and half are Saudis”, saying that every Palestinian can show that he came from Egypt, or Syria, or Yemen or Saudi Arabia, and thus those countries should send help to Palestinians, in his words, not so they can live well, but because they wage the Jihad. By the same token, a large percentage of Americans are German, British, Irish, etc… That doesn’t mean, however, that “American” isn’t a valid grouping in which to place people. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/173 "2012-05-09T18:36:57Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > By the same token, a large percentage of Americans are German, British, Irish, etc… That doesn’t mean, however, that “American” isn’t a valid grouping in which to place people. But it does mean that anyone who says that “Americans have been here for the last 1500 years” is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/174 "2012-05-09T19:54:45Z")
Apples and oranges. That there were people there since ancient times is not disputed. That they were just one contiguous line of people is (they moved around, immigrated, emigrated, died off, etc…). That doesn’t mean that there weren’t people there for 1500 years. Put it another way: there have been people in Central/South America for thousands of years. They haven’t been the same exact ethnic groups, and Mexicans are not Aztecs (or Mayans, or what have you), but there were still people there for the last several thousand years. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/175 "2012-05-09T20:30:25Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Apples and oranges. That there were people there since ancient times is not disputed. That they were just one contiguous line of people is (they moved around, immigrated, emigrated, died off, etc…). That doesn’t mean that there weren’t people there for 1500 years. There were. For more than 1500 years. Probably for 15000 years and more. But the Palestinians living there cannot claim descent from those people when they came from Egypt, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Syria etc. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/176 "2012-05-09T20:48:34Z")
Again, not completely true. Did some of the people who lived there 1500 years ago have descendants who stayed there that time? Probably. Did others move in from other areas and intermix with the natives? Yes. Did some of the natives and the intermixed offspring leave? Yes. And so on. The Palestinians, as a population, are not the direct lineal descendants of the Canaanites, for example. But so what? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/177 "2012-05-09T20:51:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > But the Palestinians living there cannot claim descent from those people when they came from Egypt, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Syria etc. I agree, but I think it’s worth keeping in mind that their eclectic descent per se does not somehow invalidate their claims to be a distinct group. Rather it is evidence of their underlying motivations. The problem with “Palestinians” is that they were invented and continue to be identified as a group primarily to undermine Zionism. To use **Finnagain** ’s words, they are a “weapon” which is being “cynically used.” There aren’t “Americans” who are being discriminated against and kept stateless generation after generation in order to undermine Canada or Mexico or any other country for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/178 "2012-05-09T21:30:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > But it does mean that anyone who says that “Americans have been here for the last 1500 years” is wrong. That’s true. Very few Americans live to the age of 1500. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/179 "2012-05-09T23:52:53Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > There aren’t “Americans” who are being discriminated against and kept stateless generation after generation in order to undermine Canada or Mexico or any other country for that matter. Neither Canada and the US or Mexico and the US have serious disputes about the location of the border. But things like that have happened in other countries…the “optants” of Alsace-Lorraine after Germany took it over, who lost their French citizenship but refused to take German citizenship; The Polish Jews living in Germany in the 1930s who were stripped of their Polish citizenship and were put into refugee camps by Poland after Germany deported them; in fact, stateless Jews all over Europe in the 1930s and 40s; Western Saharans in Algeria; Sudanese refugees in Chad; Chinese in Brunei, Bedouin in Kuwait. It’s not like the Palestinians refugees are the only stateless people in the world, or the only group whose lives countries are playing games with for political reasons. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757/180 "2012-05-10T00:10:11Z")
Yes Captain, but since we see that during the nascence of Palestinian Nationalism, one of its main figures also uses it for his political gains, there’s no such thing as a Palestinian. And Brazil’s deliberate unwillingness to learn anything about the history of the region unless he gets to ask increasingly bad faith fetch-quest questions just shows how unreal the Palestinians are. After all, if they were real, he would’ve been motivated to learn the history. But since he’s not, they aren’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-the-main-reason-for-the-israel-palestine-conflict/620757.md?page=10)