# Is religious brutality and war in line with Darwinian thinking ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 29, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-brutality-and-war-in-line-with-darwinian-thinking/732971 "2015-09-29T19:05:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-brutality-and-war-in-line-with-darwinian-thinking/732971/1 "2015-09-29T19:05:29Z")
Rather than being a foolish, anti-scientific body of work, religion is a clever and time-tested tool of Darwinian struggles for survival - like advertising and political propaganda. And if this is so, does the fact that there have been several childless Popes show a failure of this - no reproduction for the greatest exponents of the religion ? Why is Dawkins so pissed off at religion, rather than marveling at the ingenuity it presents as a survival and status gaining strategy ? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-brutality-and-war-in-line-with-darwinian-thinking/732971/2 "2015-09-29T19:21:25Z")
By “Darwinian thinking”, are you referring to evolution? If so, I doubt religion is much of a factor at all. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-brutality-and-war-in-line-with-darwinian-thinking/732971/3 "2015-09-29T19:33:09Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > Rather than being a foolish, anti-scientific body of work, religion is a clever and time-tested tool of Darwinian struggles for survival - like advertising and political propaganda. > And if this is so, does the fact that there have been several childless Popes show a failure of this - no reproduction for the greatest exponents of the religion ? > Why is Dawkins so pissed off at religion, rather than marveling at the ingenuity it presents as a survival and status gaining strategy ? Comparing a human societal characteristic to evolution is _absolutely not_ a “compliment” or a “good thing” in any way – evolution is nasty, brutal, uncaring, and results in tons of suffering (as well as resulting in tons of beauty and marvel). “Survival of the fittest” is not a moral statement, and it definitely should not be a moral aspiration. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-brutality-and-war-in-line-with-darwinian-thinking/732971/4 "2015-09-29T20:08:52Z")
I’m going to question the premise here. What evidence is there that religion is a tool that helps in the struggle for survival? History seems to suggest the opposite. Religion is often a cause for conflict and participating in conflict is a good way to get killed even if you’re on the winning side. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-brutality-and-war-in-line-with-darwinian-thinking/732971/5 "2015-09-29T20:11:21Z")
It’s a tool for survival by way of being a hierarchy with ascending levels of wealth, control and privilege. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-brutality-and-war-in-line-with-darwinian-thinking/732971/6 "2015-09-29T20:16:26Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > It’s a tool for survival by way of being a hierarchy with ascending levels of wealth, control and privilege. Survival of what? And what about this poorly communicated idea of yours makes religion not be anti-scientific? ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-brutality-and-war-in-line-with-darwinian-thinking/732971/7 "2015-09-29T20:23:32Z")
Evolution is concerned with the pressures of genetic selection and the variation/change in a population’s genetics over time. Anything that affects the relative frequency of genetic material in a population is “in line with Darwinian thinking” even if the result is a bunch of cave fish that are blind. As people, we tend to think blind cave fish are disadvantaged. They’re obviously not as “good” as the original seeing fish. But this is just a human way of seeing things. Blind cave fish exist because they were selected for (or, at least, not selected against). “Survival of the fit” has no problem with blind fish in an environment with no light because they are equally (if not more) fit as the ones with working eyes. So brutality is not more Darwinian than peace. Brutality represents one selective pressure and peace represents a different one. Darwin has no problem with either one. Of course, religion is not a simply inherited trait, so it might be wrong to think about it too much in evolutionary terms. While certain genetic traits probably influence religious behavior, it’s not as close a relationship as genes and blue eyes. Also, it may well be that religion is a red herring here altogether - are religious wars actually fought because of religion or just because brutal people came up with an excuse to justify their pre-existing brutal nature? As for why Dawkins might be opposed to it - as people, we can think about things in an abstract sense. It’s the same reason it seems so obvious that blind fish are bad. One might conclude that religion is a bad thing from a logical/scientific perspective, even if they felt it was useful from an evolutionary fitness to reproduce standpoint. (Not that I’m any fan of Dawkin’s, mind you.) ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-brutality-and-war-in-line-with-darwinian-thinking/732971/8 "2015-09-29T20:30:42Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Survival of what? And what about this poorly communicated idea of yours makes religion not be anti-scientific? Survival of rivalry with people for resources. hence Popes had armies and peasants had potatoes. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-brutality-and-war-in-line-with-darwinian-thinking/732971/9 "2015-09-29T20:33:54Z")
The whole idea of this is to SURVIVE and REPRODUCE. Humans require power in order to survive and reproduce. It could simply be a matter of being the biggest meanest caveman in the tribe. It could involve controlling resources. Or it could involve being very good at interpersonal relations. But having some power is essential. Nobody wants to breed with the low monkey on the tree. In situations where religion helps one acquire power, it is a successful strategy. If religion interferes with power, or prevents reproduction, it is not. Religious views of this would likely disagree with me, though ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-brutality-and-war-in-line-with-darwinian-thinking/732971/10 "2015-09-29T20:41:21Z")
The growth of religion can be viewed in terms of Dawkins’ memes, and has nothing to do with biological evolution. Judaism doesn’t care if those not born Jewish convert, and makes it reasonably difficult. People could believe in several pagan religion at a time. Christianity, and later Islam, told potential converts of unfalsifiable horrible things that would happen to them after death if they didn’t convert, and was perfectly okay with kings forcibly converting their subjects. And Christians had no problem with killing holdouts. If you had believed in a pagan god, one of many, why not add Jesus to your list? Your kids will soon know no others. It ain’t biology, it’s marketing. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-brutality-and-war-in-line-with-darwinian-thinking/732971/11 "2015-09-29T21:26:01Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > Survival of rivalry with people for resources. hence Popes had armies and peasants had potatoes. I’m fairly sure the Popes had potatoes as well, supplied by the peasants. You’re not really making any sense. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-brutality-and-war-in-line-with-darwinian-thinking/732971/12 "2015-09-29T21:52:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > “Survival of the fittest” is not a moral statement, and it definitely should not be a moral aspiration. For the record, Darwin didn’t use the phrase “survival of the fittest;” that was Herbert Spencer writing several years after _On the Origin of Species_. Darwin described the process as “descent with modification,” though he did adopt SOTF for later editions of his own book. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-brutality-and-war-in-line-with-darwinian-thinking/732971/13 "2015-09-29T22:17:08Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > It’s a tool for survival by way of being a hierarchy with ascending levels of wealth, control and privilege. Whether this is true or not, why would this make it better? Dawkins has argued that religion is bad because the evil and suffering it has inflicted far outweighs the good things it has done. This can be true whether or not it has anything in common with evolution. ---
**Author:** ![Mikeisskeptical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@Mikeisskeptical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikeisskeptical)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-brutality-and-war-in-line-with-darwinian-thinking/732971/14 "2015-09-29T22:29:50Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Survival of what? And what about this poorly communicated idea of yours makes religion not be anti-scientific? Dawkins would likely say survival of itself. The beliefs don’t have to be beneficial to thosewho hold them. They can propagate even at the host expense. That’s the basic idea behind memes. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-brutality-and-war-in-line-with-darwinian-thinking/732971/15 "2015-09-30T00:26:51Z")
I always thought it was hilarious that religious fundamentalists don’t believe in evolution, yet have many children. Secular and wishy washy religious people believe in evolution, but have very few, sometimes zero children. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-brutality-and-war-in-line-with-darwinian-thinking/732971/16 "2015-09-30T02:05:20Z")
> [@naita](#): > > I’m fairly sure the Popes had potatoes as well, supplied by the peasants. You’re not really making any sense. You make my point precisely. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-brutality-and-war-in-line-with-darwinian-thinking/732971/17 "2015-09-30T02:23:23Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > You make my point precisely. No, that’s an argument against your point. You can’t think of religion as just something the Pope had. If the Pope had been the only person with religious beliefs, nobody would have been handing him those potatoes. It was the peasants who made up the mass of religion. And their religious beliefs made them give away potatoes. What survival strategy did this behavior support? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-brutality-and-war-in-line-with-darwinian-thinking/732971/18 "2015-09-30T04:24:33Z")
> [@Master\_Wang-Ka](#): > > Humans require power in order to survive and reproduce. If that were true, there wouldn’t be a billion poor people in the world ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-brutality-and-war-in-line-with-darwinian-thinking/732971/19 "2015-09-30T06:31:35Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > Why is Dawkins so pissed off at religion, rather than marveling at the ingenuity it presents as a survival and status gaining strategy ? **Is** Dawkins actually pissed off at religion? I mean, he says a lot of things about religion and how he disagrees with it - and I expect we could find examples where he got pissed off at an individual who was being aggressively ignorant or wilfully dishonest, but my impression of his general demeanour, when talking about religion, is one of calm. To your question: yes, the principles of evolution can apply to things other than biological organisms - anywhere there is imperfect replication, plus selective pressure. It doesn’t tell us anything about whether we should admire or despise the results. Evolution gave us Butterflies and Botulism; Emus and Ebola; Guinea Pigs and the Guinea Worm. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-brutality-and-war-in-line-with-darwinian-thinking/732971/20 "2015-09-30T20:16:55Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > No, that’s an argument against your point. You can’t think of religion as just something the Pope had. If the Pope had been the only person with religious beliefs, nobody would have been handing him those potatoes. > > It was the peasants who made up the mass of religion. And their religious beliefs made them give away potatoes. What survival strategy did this behavior support? Exactly, religion is a means of getting people to hand you their potatoes and do what they’re told. And it’s cunning Darwinian stuff - like leopard spots and angler fish lures. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-brutality-and-war-in-line-with-darwinian-thinking/732971.md?page=2)