# Is "Religious = Moral & Patriotic" Insulting to Atheists? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2003, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-moral-patriotic-insulting-to-atheists/210094 "2003-10-28T20:13:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ramanujan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/51bf81/32.png) [@Ramanujan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramanujan)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-moral-patriotic-insulting-to-atheists/210094/61 "2003-10-29T16:20:49Z")
on the logical implications of the statement: “religious people are not immoral.” i agree that this does not imply that nonreligious people are immoral. however, if there are immoral people, then this statement: “only nonreligious people can be immoral.” IS implied. note that this is not the same as saying nonreligious people are immoral. but it does seem a bit of an offensive (and obviously incorrect) point of view. it’s offensive because the religious in the government believe that it is ok that they try to coerce others toward their religion, so long as they do not ban outright the practice of other religions. you’ll find that sentiment in almost everyone who disagrees with the 9th circuit court’s pledge decision, and certainly everyone who supports judge roy moore. i personally don’t believe that’s what “religious freedom” means. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-moral-patriotic-insulting-to-atheists/210094/62 "2003-10-29T16:24:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > **Oh, please tell me you’re joking—where do you live, Vatican City?** > > Cleveland Ohio > > \*\* > —Eve (who already has her dress picked out for hell: red satin) \*\* Hey, if its Hell the point is to torture you-so you may just appear wearing sweat clothes. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-moral-patriotic-insulting-to-atheists/210094/63 "2003-10-29T16:28:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > I’d expect deeply religious people to behave in some ways better than nominally religious people… Depends on which religion they’re deeply committed to. Someone who is deeply committed to Christian Identity is likely to behave a lot worse than your nominal, baptized-married-and-buried, goes-to-church-on-Easter-and-listens-to-the-pastor’s-sermon-on-how-the-Jews-killed-Jesus white supremacist. Seriously, there is “deeply religious”, and then there’s “religious fanatic”. A lot of times when these “deeply religious” people are discovered to have committed some horrible atrocity, it turns out they were trying to Drive Out the Demons from their children or some such. ---
**Author:** ![Ramanujan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/51bf81/32.png) [@Ramanujan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramanujan)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-moral-patriotic-insulting-to-atheists/210094/64 "2003-10-29T16:29:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > Oh, please tell me you’re joking—where do you live, Vatican City? > > —Eve (who already has her dress picked out for hell: red satin) you’ve never heard a tv personality (news anchor, sportscaster, etc.) say something like “our thoughts and prayers are with them…”? it seems pretty common in my memory… ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-moral-patriotic-insulting-to-atheists/210094/65 "2003-10-29T16:36:02Z")
We have news prayers here in Chicago as well. The word “pray” has replaced the terms “pulling for” and “hoping all goes well”. Why wouldn’t they? The President is always praying for someone or god-blessing someone else. Religion’s influence in EVERYONE’S everyday life gets worse all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Ramanujan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/51bf81/32.png) [@Ramanujan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramanujan)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-moral-patriotic-insulting-to-atheists/210094/66 "2003-10-29T16:52:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kalhoun \* > Religion’s influence in EVERYONE’S everyday life gets worse all the time. strangely, i have no problem with politicians, newscasters, or any individual person saying “god bless you” or “our prayers are with you” or anything that indicates that they are religious. it becomes troublesome when they fail to recognize the damage done by trying to force a society that supports their religion over others, or the implications of “goverment’s acknowledgement” of the judeo-christian god. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-moral-patriotic-insulting-to-atheists/210094/67 "2003-10-29T17:07:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* > \*\*Depends on which religion they’re deeply committed to. Someone who is deeply committed to Christian Identity is likely to behave a lot worse than your nominal, baptized-married-and-buried, goes-to-church-on-Easter-and-listens-to-the-pastor’s-sermon-on-how-the-Jews-killed-Jesus white supremacist. > > Seriously, there is “deeply religious”, and then there’s “religious fanatic”. A lot of times when these “deeply religious” people are discovered to have committed some horrible atrocity, it turns out they were trying to Drive Out the Demons from their children or some such. \*\* To some degree, I think you’re right – that’s why I qualified my higher expectations by saying it’s only in certain areas. Again, as a general rule, most moral codes have a clause in them that prevents you from starving your own children. Not all moral codes, but most moral codes. It’s therefore especially surprising when someone who adheres strongly to a moral code does this. It wouldn’t be especially surprising to discover that the person who blew up an abortion clinic adhered to a strong moral code; in fact, I’d be surprised if I found out that an abortion-clinic bomber was NOT deeply religious. A news report that said, “Neighbors were surprised that Bill blew up the clinic; after all, he had never shown signs of being especially religious” would seem appropriate to me. I think that **Eve’s** objection to the second quote, about the guy who fell in love with a woman because she was religious and had good morals, is completely unfounded. I might similarly say that I fell in love with my wife in part because she’s liberal and has good values; all I’m saying is that her values/morals are similar enough to mine that we’re compatible. And that’s what I think the guy in **Eve’s** second example was talking about. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-moral-patriotic-insulting-to-atheists/210094/68 "2003-10-29T17:40:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > Again, as a general rule, most moral codes have a clause in them that prevents you from starving your own children. Not all moral codes, but most moral codes. It’s therefore especially surprising when someone who adheres strongly to a moral code does this. > [@](#): > > If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. – [Deuteronomy 13:6-9](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Deuteronomy+13%3A6-9&NIV_version=yes&language=english) > [@](#): > > Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law–a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ – [Matthew 10:34-36](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Matt+10%3A34-36&NIV_version=yes&language=english) > [@](#): > > If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters–yes, even his own life–he cannot be my disciple. – [Luke 14:26](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Luke+14%3A26&NIV_version=yes&language=english) So, again, it is possible that a certain type of religious fanatic might do terrible things to members of his own family _because_ of his strong adherence to a particular moral code. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-moral-patriotic-insulting-to-atheists/210094/69 "2003-10-29T17:57:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* > \*\*So, again, it is possible that a certain type of religious fanatic might do terrible things to members of his own family _because_ of his strong adherence to a particular moral code. \*\* Well, didn’t that lady in Houston drown her kids because she thought Satan wanted them or something like that? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-moral-patriotic-insulting-to-atheists/210094/70 "2003-10-29T19:13:35Z")
If you (the general you) think awful things are done, but religious (or deeply religious) people can’t do them, then you are claiming that irreligious (or less religious) people are doing them. There is no logical fallacy there. Julie ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-moral-patriotic-insulting-to-atheists/210094/71 "2003-10-29T20:03:10Z")
**MEBuckner** , had my argument been that Scripture contains no oogy clauses, your quotes would have relevance. Fortunately, that wasn’t my point. If you want to argue against my point, you’ll need to show me that most moral codes do NOT contain a clause in them against starving your own children. You can start by showing me that churches in the United States generally don’t teach parents to raise their children to be fruitful members of society; after all, kids who are starved aren’t going to be fruitful. Don’t try to get around it by citing scary passages of the Bible, unless you can show me that those passages are used by a significant number of religious denominations to support the starvation of one’s children. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-moral-patriotic-insulting-to-atheists/210094/72 "2003-10-29T20:49:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > \*\*To some degree, I think you’re right – that’s why I qualified my higher expectations by saying it’s only in certain areas. Again, as a general rule, most moral codes have a clause in them that prevents you from starving your own children. Not all moral codes, but most moral codes. It’s therefore especially surprising when someone who adheres strongly to a moral code does this. > > \*\* Adhering strongly to a moral code isn’t the same thing as being “deeply religious,” for two reasons: 1. People can believe something is immoral, believe it with all their hearts, and still do it, and 2. People can act as if they believe something is immoral and still do it. If I label someone as “deeply religious,” I have little way of knowing if they truly believe what they claim to believe; and even once their beliefs have been established, nothing prevents them from doing it (the immoral act) anyway. Who among us has never done something, willfully, while feeling it was immoral? Julie ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-moral-patriotic-insulting-to-atheists/210094/73 "2003-10-29T21:53:57Z")
**jsgoddess** , one of us is missing the other’s point. I’m not saying folks with strong moral codes NEVER do wrong; I’m just saying they do the wrong things cautioned against by their moral codes more rarely than folks without strong moral codes. I, for example, have a moral code that cautions against eating certain animals – especially adult mammals. That doesn’t mean I’m perfect; I’ve eaten beef as recently as May, maybe even more recently. But I eat beef far less often than I would if my moral code didn’t caution against it. I figure that deeply religious people will subscribe to a moral code strongly, and that most moral codes caution against starving your children; therefore, deeply religious people should, one would expect, starve their children more rarely than folks without a strong moral code, but just as often as, say, devout humanists or communist-anarchists. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Danimal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Danimal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danimal)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-moral-patriotic-insulting-to-atheists/210094/74 "2003-10-30T01:28:10Z")
This atheist’s quick take, with apologies for not having read the entire thread. I do not find the implication that the religious are moral and patriotic to be insulting. (I think it’s _mistaken_, but that’s another question). Merely to believe that religious people have these virtues does not imply that I cannot have them. Suppose that the article had stated, “The investigators were puzzled that the Harvard graduate could not read English or do basic multiplication.” Is that supposed to be insulting to all non-Harvard graduates, including the Yalies and the Princetonians? Is it to be interpreted as an insinuation that non-Harvard graduates can’t read English or do basic math? Not in my book. It simply expresses surprise that the Harvard graduate lacked a characteristic that is usually associated with Harvard graduates. There _are_ people who say I can’t be moral or patriotic because I’m an atheist, and I do find that insulting. But I don’t see that here. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-moral-patriotic-insulting-to-atheists/210094/75 "2003-10-30T02:36:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > \*\*I figure that deeply religious people will subscribe to a moral code strongly \*\* I think this is the crux of our disagreement. I think I might label someone “deeply religious” without knowing the true state of their religiosity, but even more, I disagree that being deeply religious makes subscribing to a moral code, whether strongly or weakly, more likely. But this is probably because I define the term differently. To me, being “deeply religious” can mean all sorts of things, including public proselytizing, conversations directly with God, or going to Mass every day out of fear of Hell. Any sort of “obsessing” (I’m using that term for lack of a better one) over one’s religion strikes me as “deeply religious.” Julie ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-moral-patriotic-insulting-to-atheists/210094/76 "2003-10-30T07:35:26Z")
Warning: this post contains vast amounts of pedantry. Read at your own risk (Eve, you want to look away) Regarding the logical validity of inferences: If 0\< P(A), P(B) \<1 and P(A|B)\>P(A), then the following statements are true: P(B|A)\>P(B) P(A|~B)\P(~A) So if the religious are more likely to be moral, then it follows that the nonreligious are more likely to be immoral. Gobear > [@](#): > > The GOP apparently thinks preventing gay marriage is far more important to our nation than fighting terrorism, the mess in Iraq, or the flagging economy, since they are making gay marriage the leading issue of their 2004 platform. Are they asking Congress to approve $87 Billion to stop same sex marriage? “We’re against terrorism” would be a rather silly campaign plank. Danimal > [@](#): > > Suppose that the article had stated, “The investigators were puzzled that the Harvard graduate could not read English or do basic multiplication.” Is that supposed to be insulting to all non-Harvard graduates, including the Yalies and the Princetonians? No, but only because one can tell from context that the important piece of information is not which college that the person attended, but that he attended at all. If someone were to say “Hey, that implies that people that don’t go to college are more likely to not be able to read than people who do”, would you disagree with that? ---
**Author:** ![TeaElle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-moral-patriotic-insulting-to-atheists/210094/77 "2003-11-01T11:07:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\*I think the fact that I saw both quotes the same morning is what began the knicker-twisting . . . But I still see the first one as saying, “They abused their children? But how could that be? They’re _religious!_” Which is not so far from saying, “They abused their children? I’m not surprised—they’re _atheists!_” \*\* Try it this way: “They abused their children which seems to go against what they represent themselves to be!” I think it’s overreaching to look at statements that are specifically addressing religious people and presume that they contain some greater implication about non-religious people. I think that’s especially true of the statement that the widower made about hi murdered wife. **She** was religious. **She** had good morals. He’s not talking about religious people or non-religious people in general, he’s speaking about one specific woman who was both religious and morally upstanding. In addition, I think as easily as one could say that the Times writer correlated deeply religious with morally upstanding, one could say that the Times writer simply used “deeply religious” as (sloppy) shorthand for “adhering to a set of beliefs which condemn doing intentional harm to others, like starving children” because that is true of the vast majority of religions, especially as practiced in North America. And in that, the point holds: the investigators were puzzled that people who have claimed to adhere to a set of beliefs which condemn doing intentional harm to others could cause such grievous injury to their own children." And it is, indeed, very distressing, that people could do something so contrary to their public personas, that they could be so deceptive and debased and evil. No matter if we’re talking about people acting in ways that are dissonant with their stated religious or moral views, their political views, their ethical views or anything that seems to be self-defining, it is always a shock and a matter of concern when the wool can be pulled over everyone’s eyes in such a grand fashion. It causes all of us to stop and reassess and try to figure out where _our_ shortcomings are that we’re incapable of seeing these people for what they truly are. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-moral-patriotic-insulting-to-atheists/210094/78 "2003-11-01T19:58:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ramanujan \* > \*\* > yes, it is strange how many people believe that without belief in god, there would be no reason to refrain from murdering people. it scares me, in fact, that these people can see no other reason to behave morally. \*\* Anyone ever notice how many horrible people in the world are religious or were raised that way? I have always found this so incredibly strange and disturbing. If you must have an outside force to keep you in line, what happens if you stop believing in that force? I’ll take an atheist’s interest in self-respect any day of the week. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-moral-patriotic-insulting-to-atheists/210094/79 "2003-11-01T20:39:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\* The GOP apparently thinks preventing gay marriage is far more important to our nation than fighting terrorism, the mess in Iraq, or the flagging economy, since they are making gay marriage the leading issue of their 2004 platform. > > \*\* Really?? That would be rather bizarre… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religious-moral-patriotic-insulting-to-atheists/210094.md?page=3)