# Is ridicule an acceptable strategy in fighting ignorance? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 12, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273 "2012-08-12T16:00:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/41 "2012-08-12T23:38:14Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Why would anyone want to take that away, especially from people that have so little? (snip) Unfortunately, there is no way to convey vocal tone over a message board, but be assured, I mean this post in a gentle way and not one designed to antagonize. Because it is a _false_ hope, one that by design, or simply as a result of it’s intrinsic nature, conspires to perpetuate the ignorance and poverty that plagues those same areas. Worse yet, it creates mindsets and political opinions based upon myth and superstitions rather than reason, logic, observation, or even just a simple searching of one’s conscience. It provides pat, easy answers to difficult questions and discourages growth, exploration and innovation. It creates a sort of comfortable, welcoming numbness of thought and critical thinking. It treats us as ignorant children who need easily digested lies rather than the more difficult, but ultimately vastly more satisfying truth. At it’s worst, it can become predatory on the parish who placed their trust and well being into the hands of an absentee and occasionally abusive parental figure. All because the world and the reality of eventual death is just too complicated, too scary, and the church offered that welcoming apron to hide under. Yes, it can create a positive community, hope and an environment to stem the worst of humanity’s darker nature; but it does this at the high cost of stagnation. I don’t want to see any person held back by fear. I want to see each person free, truly free to make their choices based upon the best case _they_ can muster, not myths and legends that we outgrew long ago. I will never fault someone for holding an opinion contrary to mine if they can convey how they arrived upon it. It is the nature of humans to disagree, to argue and to be contrary; but we can do this without a pleasant fantasy to give us all the easy answers. At its heart, the position, ( at least for me) is based upon compassion for my fellow man. I want each person to have the real opportunity to excel. Snake-oil salesmen are a nuisance, a distraction no matter how silver their tongues or how good they make us feel. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2012, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/42 "2012-08-12T23:49:59Z")
Eventually, I’m going to learn to stay the hell out of these threads, because they do little beyond piss me off. It is incredibly arrogant to assume one has all the answers, knows what is best for everyone, and to dismiss a position held by something like 85% of the entire world population as “false hope”. No one actually knows whether there is or is not a God or gods. Religious faith, in and of itself, does no harm and does some measurable good. Hungry people get fed, homeless people get shelter, hopeless people find strength to face another day as a direct result of religious faith. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter if God exists. For those that believe, no explanation is necessary. For those that do not believe, no explanation will suffice. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/43 "2012-08-12T23:56:29Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > E > It is incredibly arrogant to assume one has all the answers, knows what is best for everyone, and to dismiss a position held by something like 85% of the entire world population as “false hope”. No one actually knows whether there is or is not a God or gods. Religious faith, in and of itself, does no harm and does some measurable good. Hungry people get fed, homeless people get shelter, hopeless people find strength to face another day as a direct result of religious faith. A few hundred years ago everyone knew that earth was flat, and common diseases were caused by demons. Lots of people find the strength to face another day in drugs, alcohol, or other delusions. Why are they wrong, but the religious right? Facts are not voted on by popularity. They are deciphered by objective, repeatable measurements. There is nothing arrogant about facing reality. No one claims to have all the answers, or know what’s best. That is your misunderstanding. Those of us who object to religion, are doing so for the same reason one might object to psychics, door to door scam artists and con-men. There isn’t any need for fantasy when there is so much to discover right here, right now. Take a look at the blanket pronouncements you make in your own statement, yet you have the gall to call us arrogant, and pedantic? ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/44 "2012-08-13T00:10:17Z")
Not acceptable. People who are ignorant should be treated respectfully in a similar manner to children. Would you ridicule a child for ignorance? More over, I don’t think it helps to try and absolve people of beliefs about things like God which aren’t disprovable. It’s better to focus on concrete physical things which are demonstrable such as the age of the earth. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/45 "2012-08-13T00:33:09Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > It is incredibly arrogant to assume one has all the answers, knows what is best for everyone, and to dismiss a position held by something like 85% of the entire world population as “false hope”. No one actually knows whether there is or is not a God or gods. Religious faith, in and of itself, does no harm and does some measurable good. Hungry people get fed, homeless people get shelter, hopeless people find strength to face another day as a direct result of religious faith. Is it more arrogant to proclaim to the world that there are no gods and religion is wrong than to proclaim there is a god and your religion is right? Surely the nature of religion is that those who believe in it assume they have more answers and more certainty than atheists. As for people getting fed and people getting shelter, well people get starved and kicked out of their homes in the name of some faith too. Religion is a double edged sword, and it needs to stop being _any_ kind of sword before I’ll see it a good thing for humanity as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/46 "2012-08-13T00:42:06Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > What are you talking about? Both employ ridicule frequently. I’ve been thinking about this all afternoon. Satire, hyperbole, and even mocking are words I would use, but not ‘ridicule’. ‘Ridicule’ has the connotations of having no real rational basis, to me. “You’re so stupid!”, as opposed to “Did you read the study?!!!” Stewart and Colbert are not just ranters and ridiculers; they toss a few facts into the mix. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/47 "2012-08-13T00:56:47Z")
Is comparing God to Santa Claus ridicule? I’d consider it to be so, as well as being a valid comparison. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/48 "2012-08-13T07:28:01Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > The particular “ignorance” in this case is globally unresolved (although some countries, like France, Japan and Sweden are making huge progress). It’s the belief in the supernatural. > > I’m on the board of the Humanist organisation and we’re split on the issue of wether ridicule is a good strategy or not. The aim of the organisation is to promote a secular humanist world view, mainly targetting religion and superstition. > > More aggressive members, such as myself, think that using comedy, irony and other forms of socially acceptable ridicule is a powerful and valid strategy. Religion is culturally “un cool” and we believe that by making religious views socially unattractive it will help reduce the already low recruitment rates of different religious institutions and win arguments effectively. > > More moderate (ethical?) members belive that this strategy is hurtful to the long term strategic goals of the organisations, or simply think it is morally wrong. Who has the better case? The moderates are right and wrong. Wrong: Ridicule is more effective than reason, logic, etc…because it plays to the more primitive, animalistic part of human nature. Right: Naturally, ridicule is, in the final analysis, an ad hominem argument, which confuses the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/49 "2012-08-13T07:38:33Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The second clan peaked at about 15% of whites, main line protestants are currently at 18.1% > > Do you call them “fringe” The Superman radio show took on the klan in 1940 which is long after the organization had peaked. According to Wikipedia, membership in 1924 was 6 million and was down to 30,000 by 1930. It’s great that Superman took on the klan but by 1940 they were certainly a fringe group. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/50 "2012-08-13T07:56:18Z")
Satire and parody is a very, very powerful tool. But it has to be used very, very carefully. For one, you have to take great care to not misrepresent the beliefs of the religion you are making fun of. This is why Chick Tracts are only really useful in persuading people who already more or less agree with Jack Chick, because whichever position he cares to demean (Evolution, Atheism, Catholicism) is almost universally perverted into a form that barely resembles its actual beliefs and implications. The pitfall here is that there are so **many** religions (hell, denominations of a single religion) that you’re absolutely bound to mischaracterize somebody’s position. You can work around this by trying to mock the statistically most common positions, but you have to tread on careful ground. The other point is that while you may be making fun of their beliefs, it absolutely **cannot** feel like a personal attack. It’s imperative to make them laugh with you. The goal needs to be not to make fun of religious people for being dumb (or whatever), that’s comedy for people who are already atheists. No, what you need to do is make them think “haha, yeah, that **is** kind of silly.” I suggest reading “Some Mistakes of Moses” an oft neglected book that makes an absolute mockery of the Biblical creation story, for one. “And God, having used up all the nothing…”. You can hear a few passages in [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6MWo_drOhI) video. Some good examples of making fun of beliefs can be found in [DarkMatter2525’s Youtube Channel](http://www.youtube.com/user/DarkMatter2525). Keep in mind that he also makes fun of fundamentalists and religious people sometimes, so it’s up to you to separate the videos into making fun of beliefs vs people. He is, after all, a channel for atheists, rather than to convert believers. Overall, I do not think that satire, parody, ridicule, whatever you want to call it is serviceable as a main approach. If you run a pamphlet, I say it should be 98% essay and reason, and 2% comic strip, jokes, whatever. However, I do think that laughter and parody of beliefs can be a useful tool as long as you realize that it will put some people on the defensive. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/51 "2012-08-13T08:16:48Z")
Where belief in the supernatural has some of the most terrible results, as in some parts of Africa where people are murdered for being believed to be witches for example, ridicule simply wouldn’t work. Their belief is at present , rock solid. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/52 "2012-08-13T09:47:48Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > And we have Tony Blair quoting The Life of Brian’s “What have the Romans ever done for us?” in public speaches. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I can tell you personally that the Life of Brian was a watershed moment for me, it let me be honest about my feelings. Tony Blair converted to Catholicism in 2007. I’m not sure what the context of his speeches were, but “I’m not a believer in Christianity,” was not it. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/53 "2012-08-13T15:13:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Is comparing God to Santa Claus ridicule? I’d consider it to be so, as well as being a valid comparison. I’d consider it an inane comparison, given that Santa Claus is factually known to be a made-up entity for the amusement of children and that, much as you might like to pretend so, the same is not known of God. Ridicule? Assuredly so. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/54 "2012-08-13T15:37:56Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Religious faith, in and of itself, does no harm and does some measurable good. Hungry people get fed, homeless people get shelter, hopeless people find strength to face another day as a direct result of religious faith. I’ll concede the latter, but I disagree that the first two occur as a “direct result” of religious faith. It’s quite possible to feed the hungry and shelter the homeless without believing that a deity wants you to, or relying on an organization founded on belief in that deity. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/55 "2012-08-13T17:11:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Tony Blair converted to Catholicism in 2007. I’m not sure what the context of his speeches were, but “I’m not a believer in Christianity,” was not it. His religion is not important, his position as a holder of public office was relevent. Breaking the ice and allowing the conversation to happen is what the Life of Brian did for a lot of people. I found out that my Fauther was a deist and that my mother was mad at people for suggesting if you were sick god had “zapped” you for doing something bad. Those types of converstations would not have happened in a polite, go to church every sunday context. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/56 "2012-08-13T17:23:24Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > I’d consider it an inane comparison, given that Santa Claus is factually known to be a made-up entity for the amusement of children and that, much as you might like to pretend so, the same is not known of God. Ridicule? Assuredly so. Actually, as far at the god of Abaraham there is lots of evidence that most of the stories are made up too. And there is NO emperical evidence to say he is real. We do however know that Saint Nicholas, also called Nikolaos of Myra was a real person. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/57 "2012-08-13T19:15:52Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > I’d consider it an inane comparison, given that Santa Claus is factually known to be a made-up entity for the amusement of children and that, much as you might like to pretend so, the same is not known of God. Ridicule? Assuredly so. My god you’ve got a nerve ! You had to go and spoil all of my illusions. Now I know that my last thirty Christmas Eves spent waiting by the fireplace were a waste of time . Damn you to heck and back ! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/58 "2012-08-13T20:58:17Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Just so you guys knows, an appeal to ridicule is a logical fallacy, as ridiculing an idea or a person’s position has no effect on it’s validity. Well, in the case of religion, that’s assuming facts not in evidence. ---
**Author:** ![baka420](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@baka420](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/baka420)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/59 "2012-08-13T21:20:29Z")
I don’t think anybody should be ridiculed, especially if they are ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Invisible\_Chimp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f05b48/32.png) [@Invisible\_Chimp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Invisible_Chimp)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/60 "2012-08-13T21:24:21Z")
Former Doper, **Bad Astronomer** , talks about [not being a dick](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrFRbGjUtJk) regarding skepticism. In many cases, ridicule falls into the being a dick category. I think that in some rare cases, ridicule should be used, but in most cases, it’s ineffective. That being said, I think ridicule is a tempting tactic. There is the old aphorism: “You can’t convince a person using reason out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.” Ridicule is also the easy choice. Empathy and reason are harder tools to use, which may be why they are usually more powerful. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273.md?page=4)