# Is ridicule an acceptable strategy in fighting ignorance? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 12, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273 "2012-08-12T16:00:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/61 "2012-08-13T21:25:39Z")
Ridicule and Humilation have been marginalized and demonized, but they are often effective tools to make people understand that they’re being or acting stupidly. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/62 "2012-08-13T21:29:23Z")
> [@j666](#): > > I’ve been thinking about this all afternoon. Satire, hyperbole, and even mocking are words I would use, but not ‘ridicule’. > > ‘Ridicule’ has the connotations of having no real rational basis, to me. “You’re so stupid!”, as opposed to “Did you read the study?!!!” > > Stewart and Colbert are not just ranters and ridiculers; they toss a few facts into the mix. Ok, so we simply disagree on what constitutes ridicule. Although Stewart and Colbert do some of what you call ridicule as well. But they usually use something more sophisticated than that. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/63 "2012-08-13T21:52:41Z")
What about mockery and irreverence? Levity? Parody? ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/64 "2012-08-13T22:42:03Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > I’d consider it an inane comparison, given that Santa Claus is factually known to be a made-up entity for the amusement of children and that, much as you might like to pretend so, the same is not known of God. Ridicule? Assuredly so. Please explain to us how there is one iota more proof for the existence of God than for that of Santa Claus. And if you want to turn the argument on its head, we don’t **know** that there isn’t a Santa Claus. It’s famously logically difficult to disprove the existence of something. Therefore, we take a proposition–“X exists”–and seek proof for it, and if no such proof (and I mean rigorous, logical proof, not faith or belief no matter how ardent) is forthcoming, we must take up the position that X does not exist, even though what we have really said is that X is highly unlikely to exist. Therefore, we treat both Santa Claus and God as imaginary entities until such time as proof for one or the other’s existence surfaces. This relates to the OP’s question, in that children are weaned from a belief in Santa Claus by gentle (or not-so-) ridicule from their peers as they get older. ---
**Author:** ![gms453](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@gms453](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gms453)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/65 "2012-08-14T00:54:11Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > The particular “ignorance” in this case is globally unresolved (although some countries, like France, Japan and Sweden are making huge progress). It’s the belief in the supernatural. > > I’m on the board of the Humanist organisation and we’re split on the issue of wether ridicule is a good strategy or not. The aim of the organisation is to promote a secular humanist world view, mainly targetting religion and superstition. > > More aggressive members, such as myself, think that using comedy, irony and other forms of socially acceptable ridicule is a powerful and valid strategy. Religion is culturally “un cool” and we believe that by making religious views socially unattractive it will help reduce the already low recruitment rates of different religious institutions and win arguments effectively. > > More moderate (ethical?) members belive that this strategy is hurtful to the long term strategic goals of the organisations, or simply think it is morally wrong. Who has the better case? “People will always remember how you made them feel.” How did you feel the last time someone ridiculed you? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/66 "2012-08-14T02:41:38Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Ridicule is the only way to get people to stop taking emotional positions. They follow religions because it feels good, not because it makes sense. The only way to stamp it out is to make it feel bad. They don’t have to like me, they just have to think I’m right. And ridicule is an excellent way to do that. What a great plan. I’ve noticed whenever I ridicule people for their beliefs they often respond with “By Golly you’re right” and hardly ever with “You’re a jackass” ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/67 "2012-08-14T02:51:12Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > I will heartily agree that bullying is wrong, but that’s not the sort of ridicule I am talking about. A good (actually stunning) example of what I mean would be Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert. In their case it’s the comedic art form of satire, which does mock others. It is an on stage persona and I think that makes it more acceptable. Using it in general discussions I think would get you labeled as a dick fairly quickly. I think patient assertiveness and repetition work better in average people having discussions. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/68 "2012-08-14T02:58:25Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > What a great plan. I’ve noticed whenever I ridicule people for their beliefs they often respond with “By Golly you’re right” and hardly ever with “You’re a jackass” What they do to your face, and what they do later on when they are alone and have time to think about it are two different things. And catering to people’s errors & pretending false respect isn’t most certainly not going to convince them they are wrong. And as said, it works for belief in Santa Claus. And in fact it has worked quite well for most religious beliefs that have historically existed; they are openly disrespected, and no longer have significant followers. Any religion is ultimately a collection of self indulgent fantasies; sour the fantasy and it becomes less attractive. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/69 "2012-08-14T03:22:38Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > It’s quite possible to feed the hungry and shelter the homeless without believing that a deity wants you to, or relying on an organization founded on belief in that deity. That’s true, but my point is that many people support and/or participate in such charitable activities because of their involvement with a religious organization…ie, their church runs a food drive, or maybe even a soup kitchen, so the members participate/support the activity when they would probably not do so on their own. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/70 "2012-08-14T04:19:02Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Ok, so we simply disagree on what constitutes ridicule. Although Stewart and Colbert do some of what you call ridicule as well. But they usually use something more sophisticated than that. Tonight Jon Stewart was doing fat jokes about Chris Christy, showing an unflattering picture of him. The brief clip was only related to the main story because of Christy’s weight, not related in any way to a political issue. I consider that ridicule. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/71 "2012-08-14T10:57:50Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What they do to your face, and what they do later on when they are alone and have time to think about it are two different things. And catering to people’s errors & pretending false respect isn’t most certainly not going to convince them they are wrong. Who said anything about catering or pretending fake respect? There are a lot of options between ridicule and catering. > [@](#): > > And as said, it works for belief in Santa Claus. And in fact it has worked quite well for most religious beliefs that have historically existed; they are openly disrespected, and no longer have significant followers. Any religion is ultimately a collection of self indulgent fantasies; sour the fantasy and it becomes less attractive. I’d be interested in seeing any religious beliefs that you can show were abandoned because of ridicule. Let’s note that ridicule, in and of itself , does not contain any reasoning. What are people supposed to think about later when they are alone if all you’ve offered is ridicule? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/72 "2012-08-14T11:00:32Z")
> [@gms453](#): > > “People will always remember how you made them feel.” How did you feel the last time someone ridiculed you? I thought they were a mean spirited asshole and reminded myself I had no good reason to value their opinion. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/73 "2012-08-14T11:18:32Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Is comparing God to Santa Claus ridicule? I’d consider it to be so, as well as being a valid comparison. It depends. Expressing a personal opinion doesn’t have to be ridicule. It also depends on whether it’s a welcomed and expected discussion. Things often just happen in the course of daily interaction. If someone feels okay with bringing up their religious beliefs to strangers , or coworkers, casual acquaintances, then telling them “Personally I think believing in God is like believing in Santa Claus” IOW, if they gave their own unsolicited opinion then they might expect to hear one. Whether that constitutes ridicule or not is questionable in my mind. I’d consider it just being direct and blunt, with no candy coating. OTOH if you knew a coworker was religious and regularly made unsolicited snarky remarks about religion I would consider that ridicule and the act of a real dick. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/74 "2012-08-14T11:47:30Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Tonight Jon Stewart was doing fat jokes about Chris Christy, showing an unflattering picture of him. If you are going to accuse Stewart of showing an unflattering picture, kindly show a flattering picture for comparison. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/75 "2012-08-14T11:55:09Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Eventually, I’m going to learn to stay the hell out of these threads, because they do little beyond piss me off. > > It is incredibly arrogant to assume one has all the answers, knows what is best for everyone, and to dismiss a position held by something like 85% of the entire world population as “false hope”. No one actually knows whether there is or is not a God or gods. Religious faith, in and of itself, does no harm and does some measurable good. Hungry people get fed, homeless people get shelter, hopeless people find strength to face another day as a direct result of religious faith. > > Ultimately, it doesn’t matter if God exists. For those that believe, no explanation is necessary. For those that do not believe, no explanation will suffice. I think believers and non believers should remember they don’t have all the answers. I also agree that neither believers or non believers know what’s best for others. I think belief and non belief are both valid paths and people should be free to choose their own way. It irks me when either believers or non believers are too certain they are right. You’re probably aware that the CEO of Chick Fil A made some comments about it arrogant to assume we know better than God. What he failed to notice was the arrogance inherent in his assumption he knew what God thought or felt on a particular issue. It good for anyone to understand the difference between our opinion , what we believe , and facts, and the truth. Believers need to understand that no matter how certain they feel, they do no speak for God and they have no additional authority or weight because they think they do. It is decidedly not true that religious faith does no harm. Religion is made up of people with the good and the bad that people bring to the world. For some people it means help the poor. For others it means punish the wicked. You don’t have to look very deep to see the harm done by religious faith. I don’t think ridicule is a good tactic , but I do believe religious belief needs to be challenged. That’s how we progress and sift the wheat from the chaff. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/76 "2012-08-15T22:18:54Z")
There are two excellent reasons not to use ridicule to attack someone’s beliefs. Firstly, it’s unlikely to be effective. Secondly, even if it is effective, it has very low odds of strengthening the relationship for later. Imagine someone ridicules an overweight person and shames them into taking action to change their diet and exercise habits. Mission accomplished, right? Well, now they’re fit and super hot, but there’s no way in hell they’ll date you, you were that asshole who was mean to them when they were fat. Religious beliefs are tied into more of a person’s lifestyle than most other beliefs. They are part of a church community, have invested time and energy in teaching these beliefs to their children, spent time contemplating these beliefs during their darkest personal hours, etc. The lifestyle changes which will be necessary to change these beliefs are closer to the lifestyle changes that are necessary to fight weight problems. You can’t just tear down a person, you have to build a world they want to be part of and invite them in. You have to make the alternative more appealing than the status quo. As of now Atheists tend to stand against something instead of standing for something. That’s just not particularly appealing to most people. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/77 "2012-08-16T02:14:20Z")
I’m an atheist and I’ll be honest, I’m in Phil Plait’s camp on this one; don’t be a dick. I’d like more people to be atheists, because it’s correct and I think religion is damaging. But it just isn’t rational to think that THAT many people are stupid. Religious belief is very deep set and often quite considered, and based on a huge pyramid of fundamental assumptions. I know many, many smart believe who are believers. If I ridicule them they would come to the quite logical conclusion that I was a huge asshole. Here’s what I think, and what I practice; I think that while believers are the majority, there are many, many people out there who really, in their hearts, don’t believe. They may be in some stage of fooling themselves that they do, or may take that old personal ad line “I’m spiritual but not religious” to avoid admitting it. I think the reason that they are that way is because there remains a stigma associated with atheism. I think that stigma is largely one of negativity, and I think a lot of atheists have contributed to that stigma by being assholes about it. Every time that O’Hair woman got her ugly face on TV she made a million people firmer in their religious beliefs. I think the way I’m going to convince people to be atheists is by being a positive example. I’m going to be open and honest about my position, but be frank that it is not a position of pessimism or doubt; it’s a position of optimism and hope. My being an atheist makes me happy. It makes me feel free. I see all around me a world full of wonderful people that we could make so much better with a little thought and hard work. I am happy in who I am and what I think, and I will be friends with anyone no matter what they think, even if I disagree with them. I want to WELCOME people into atheism, show them that it’s really a great position to take, that you can be at peace with yourself here. I think that by doing that, I just might be able to help people get over that hump and say “Phew… you know, really, I’m an atheist too, and maybe it’s okay to be an atheist.” ---
**Author:** ![Invisible\_Chimp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f05b48/32.png) [@Invisible\_Chimp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Invisible_Chimp)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/78 "2012-08-16T02:33:02Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Here’s what I think, and what I practice; I think that while believers are the majority, there are many, many people out there who really, in their hearts, don’t believe. They may be in some stage of fooling themselves that they do, or may take that old personal ad line “I’m spiritual but not religious” to avoid admitting it. I think the reason that they are that way is because there remains a stigma associated with atheism. I think that stigma is largely one of negativity, and I think a lot of atheists have contributed to that stigma by being assholes about it. Every time that O’Hair woman got her ugly face on TV she made a million people firmer in their religious beliefs. I’m with you on most of what you wrote, but if someone says they believe, don’t ever assume they don’t really in their hearts. I’ve had it happen in reverse where people have told me I’m not really an atheist and it is irritating. The number one reason they say that I am not an atheist is because I’m a kind person, which goes against their preconceived notions of what an atheist is supposed to be, obnoxious and angry. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/79 "2012-08-16T04:24:50Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > . . . Santa Claus is factually known to be a made-up entity for the amusement of children . . . I would say EXACTLY the same about God . . . except in addition to “amusement” I’d add “fear.” ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273/80 "2012-08-16T04:31:00Z")
> [@Invisible\_Chimp](#): > > I’m with you on most of what you wrote, but if someone says they believe, don’t ever assume they don’t really in their hearts. Perhaps I was not very clear there. Iwould never assume it of an INDIVIDUAL. I would certainly never accuse anyone of it. However, I believe it to be the case of a large percentage of self-professed believers; I can’t say which ones. I must lead by example, not target people and accuse them of not believing. That’s a straight up asshole move. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ridicule-an-acceptable-strategy-in-fighting-ignorance/631273.md?page=5)