# Is Robert Fisk all he's cracked up to be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2011, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-robert-fisk-all-hes-cracked-up-to-be/569039 "2011-01-26T11:56:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-robert-fisk-all-hes-cracked-up-to-be/569039/41 "2011-01-27T16:48:01Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Would you please point me to an offending post in regard to Ibn Warraq? My apologies. I was referring to your comments directed at **FinnAgain**. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-robert-fisk-all-hes-cracked-up-to-be/569039/42 "2011-01-27T16:56:57Z")
As far as Fisk being a truther goes: I saw him give a lecture when I was in college and tried to ask him a question about the prevalence of the belief in the Islamic world that Jews were responsible for September 11th. I think his entire response was “It’s all bullshit.” Unfortunately he assumed _I_ thought that was true when I was just asking him about how many people believe it. So my impression is that he’s obnoxious but not a truther. Based on the article I’d say he’s ignorant of some of the specifics of what happened on September 11th and suspicious in general. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-robert-fisk-all-hes-cracked-up-to-be/569039/43 "2011-01-27T17:08:01Z")
Just because someone thinks that it’s bullshit that “the Jews” were involved with 9/11 doesn’t mean that they aren’t a truther. The fact the Fisk’s quoted comments are all traditional Truther nonsense sure seems to support him either being one or playing one for his audience. If you check threads we’ve had in the board, his pattern matches up to a T. That he’s a Truther out of ignorance is hardly unique; most Truthers are hardly Truthers due to excess knowledge and understanding. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-robert-fisk-all-hes-cracked-up-to-be/569039/44 "2011-01-27T17:08:18Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **Ibn Warraq** and **newcomer** , please dial down your remarks in regard to each other. > > Also: > > Please don’t alter text in quote boxes like this. Paraphrasing is fine, but do it without the sarcastic asides. Er, exactly how did I insult him? I said he was a truther and his remarks seem to indicate that he is. Are you saying that the phrase “truther” is a pejorative that I shouldn’t use? What’s next, if someone claims they agree with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or David Irving’s view of the Holocaust that we can’t refer to them as Holocaust deniers? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-robert-fisk-all-hes-cracked-up-to-be/569039/45 "2011-01-27T17:11:35Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > As far as Fisk being a truther goes: I saw him give a lecture when I was in college and tried to ask him a question about the prevalence of the belief in the Islamic world that Jews were responsible for September 11th. I think his entire response was “It’s all bullshit.” Unfortunately he assumed _I_ thought that was true when I was just asking him about how many people believe it. So my impression is that he’s obnoxious but not a truther. Based on the article I’d say he’s ignorant of some of the specifics of what happened on September 11th and suspicious in general. I’m sorry but that’s ridiculous? He isn’t a truther because he doesn’t believe “the Jews” carried out 9/11? Lots of truthers think the US government was behind 9/11 and Fisk’s moronic ramblings on the subject seem to indicate that he’s one of them. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-robert-fisk-all-hes-cracked-up-to-be/569039/46 "2011-01-27T17:15:37Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] As far as Fisk being a truther goes: I saw him give a lecture when I was in college and tried to ask him a question about the prevalence of the belief in the Islamic world that Jews were responsible for September 11th. I think his entire response was “It’s all bullshit.” Unfortunately he assumed I thought that was true when I was just asking him about how many people believe it. So my impression is that he’s obnoxious but not a truther. Based on the article I’d say he’s ignorant of some of the specifics of what happened on September 11th and suspicious in general. [/QUOTE] Sounds to me like he dodged your question and was probably annoyed because he’s been dinged on it before. Like I said, if it quacks like a truther and walks like a truther, it’s probably not a duck…and he says all the standard things, including the ubiquitous ‘I’m only asking questions’ bit. While some may say that this doesn’t discount his other insights, to me just being a truther is enough to through serious doubt on any analysis or insight someone like that might have. It’s simply hard to take such a person seriously. YMMV. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-robert-fisk-all-hes-cracked-up-to-be/569039/47 "2011-01-27T17:19:44Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er, exactly how did I insult him? > […] > Are you saying that the phrase “truther” is a pejorative that I shouldn’t use? I was thinking of “please don’t tell me you’re one of those idiots,” not “Truther.” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-robert-fisk-all-hes-cracked-up-to-be/569039/48 "2011-01-27T17:25:43Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Sounds to me like he dodged your question and was probably annoyed because he’s been dinged on it before. Possibly. This was years before he published the article quoted upthread, but I don’t remember exactly when it was. > [@](#): > > and he says all the standard things, including the ubiquitous ‘I’m only asking questions’ bit. That’s true. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > He isn’t a truther because he doesn’t believe “the Jews” carried out 9/11? > > Lots of truthers think the US government was behind 9/11 and Fisk’s moronic ramblings on the subject seem to indicate that he’s one of them. Fair enough. I assumed he wouldn’t be so dismissive of one conspiracy theory if he believes in another, but that’s not necessarily true. You can definitely recognize the JAQ technique in that piece. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-robert-fisk-all-hes-cracked-up-to-be/569039/49 "2011-01-27T17:26:56Z")
Ad hom is only a fallacy when it doesn’t directly address someone’s credibility/analytic abilities. Pointing out that someone lacks credibility isn’t a _rebuttal_, either, it’s simply stating that they can’t be taken at their word and their claims have to be analyzed. Even a pathological liar, for example, is right if he claims that the sky is blue (unless it’s cloudy, naturally). Edit: to be fair, Fisk’s CT seems not to be that the US government carried out 9/11, but something a little bit different (or perhaps just that Bush and his team weren’t in on the planning). To be fair, that’s somewhat typical Truther rhetoric. They don’t necessarily have any cohesive argument to offer in the place of what they’re trying to tear down, they’re Just Asking Questions about the Official Story. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-robert-fisk-all-hes-cracked-up-to-be/569039/50 "2011-01-27T17:29:18Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Would you please point me to an offending post in regard to Ibn Warraq? I’ll point out here that I’ve moderated a couple of your posts in the last few days. Re-read the rules or be more judicious about what you post in this forum. With that, any further questions or comments about the rules should be taken out of this thread and into private messages or ATMB. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-robert-fisk-all-hes-cracked-up-to-be/569039/51 "2011-01-27T17:46:29Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] Ad hom is only a fallacy when it doesn’t directly address someone’s credibility/analytic abilities. Pointing out that someone lacks credibility isn’t a rebuttal, either, it’s simply stating that they can’t be taken at their word and their claims have to be analyzed. Even a pathological liar, for example, is right if he claims that the sky is blue (unless it’s cloudy, naturally). Edit: to be fair, Fisk’s CT seems not to be that the US government carried out 9/11, but something a little bit different (or perhaps just that Bush and his team weren’t in on the planning). To be fair, that’s somewhat typical Truther rhetoric. They don’t necessarily have any cohesive argument to offer in the place of what they’re trying to tear down, they’re Just Asking Questions about the Official Story. [/QUOTE] No, you are right…shouldn’t dismiss someone simply because of their stance on something unrelated. I just seriously dislike 9/11 Truthers in particular of all the CT types and I’m seriously prejudiced on the subject. I haven’t looked closely into his other supposed expertise, so I’ll bow out and let the actual questions asked in the OP proceed. My apologies. -XT ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-robert-fisk-all-hes-cracked-up-to-be/569039/52 "2011-01-27T17:52:07Z")
By the way, on the “dancing Israelis” front, a quick search goes straight to the conspiracy site, [whatreallyhappened.com](http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html). Its link that should go to “The Jewish weekly The Forward” goes to Counterpunch instead. The link right after that goes to ABC News. What does ABC news point out? [ > [@](#): > > Sources also said that even if the men were spies, there is no evidence to conclude they had advance knowledge of the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11. The investigation, at the end of the day, after all the polygraphs, all of the field work, all the cross-checking, the intelligence work, concluded that they probably did not have advance knowledge of 9/11," Cannistraro noted. ]([Were Israelis Detained on Sept. 11 Spies? - ABC News](http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=123885&page=4)) Even Forward’s statement, reprinted here via conspiracy site since my google fu seems weak this afternoon, was (underlining mine): [ > [@](#): > > However, a counterintelligence investigation by the FBI concluded that at least two of them were in fact Mossad operatives, according to the former American official, who said he was regularly briefed on the investigation by two separate law enforcement officials. > > “The assessment was that Urban Moving Systems was a front for the Mossad and operatives employed by it,” he said. “The conclusion of the FBI was that they were spying on local Arabs but that they could leave because they did not know anything about 9/11.” ]([Spy Rumors Fly on Gusts of Truth - Americans Probing Reports of Israeli Espionage](http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/israelis_9-11.html)) So not that “the dancing Israelis” were Mossad agents, but that two of them were thought to be. IIRC while the Forward’s source was also from an unmamed source at the FBI, the FBI itself didn’t go on record making accusations. I await newcomer’s cite showing that’s incorrect, and that the FBI said they had anything, at all, to do with 9/11. [If we check out 9/11 Myths, for example,](http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Dancing_Israelis), we get bits like: > [@](#): > > MILLER: (VO) Source tell 20/20 there is still debate within the FBI over whether or not the young men were spies. But many in the US intelligence commu-nity believe that some of the men were engaged in espionage for Israel. However, sources also tell us, even if they were spies, there was no evidence to conclude they had advanced knowledge of the terrorist attacks of 9/11. > > Mr. CANNISTRARO: The investigation, at the end of the day, after all of the polygraphs, all of the field work, all of the cross-checking, the intelligence work, concluded that they probably did not have advanced knowledge of 9/11. > > WALTERS: John, so the FBI has concluded that these men did not have any ad-vanced knowledge of the attack on the Trade Center. > > MILLER: And they seem to be comfort with that conclusion. > […] > WALTERS: But the bottom line is, that there is no evidence that these men knew about the attacks in advance. > > MILLER: No. And I think the FBI and the CIA spent a great deal of time try-ing to drill down to that answer and found no proof of that. > > WALTERS: Well, I hope that we have put this rumor to rest once and for all. > > MILLER: We’ve certainly tried. Cites are awaited from newcomer. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-robert-fisk-all-hes-cracked-up-to-be/569039/53 "2011-01-27T18:11:18Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I was thinking of “please don’t tell me you’re one of those idiots,” not “Truther.” It’s wrong to use term “idiot” to describe people who believe the Mossad was behind 9/11? I didn’t call newcomer an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-robert-fisk-all-hes-cracked-up-to-be/569039/54 "2011-01-27T18:22:27Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > My apologies. Nah, don’t worry. We shouldn’t dismiss the guy out of hand, but we should feel quite free to point out that he’s shown that he has poor analytical skills and is overly credulous of conspiracy theories. When dealing with situations as complex as the Middle East, that does remove him as a go-to guy for factual analysis and does demand that any of his descriptions of events have to be, well, Fisked. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-robert-fisk-all-hes-cracked-up-to-be/569039/55 "2011-01-27T18:27:27Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It’s wrong to use term “idiot” to describe people who believe the Mossad was behind 9/11? > > I didn’t call newcomer an idiot. It did imply **newcomer** is an idiot, and I’m asking you to be careful about that so the discussion doesn’t degrade into insults. I’m not issuing a warning. And yes, Truthers are idiots. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-robert-fisk-all-hes-cracked-up-to-be/569039/56 "2011-01-27T19:14:11Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Nah, don’t worry. We shouldn’t dismiss the guy out of hand, but we should feel quite free to point out that he’s shown that he has poor analytical skills and is overly credulous of conspiracy theories. When dealing with situations as complex as the Middle East, that does remove him as a go-to guy for factual analysis and does demand that any of his descriptions of events have to be, well, Fisked. Oh man, you are A piece of work. It clearly states from the 20/20 transcript: > [@20/20](#): > > MILLER: (VO) Since their arrest, there has been plenty of speculation and ru-mor about who these men were and what they were doing that morning. Eventually The Forward, a respected Jewish newspaper in New York, reported that the FBI concluded that at least two of them were Mossad operatives. That is, agents of Israeli intelligence. So let me break this down for you oh thee with superior analytical skills : **Their** - referring to the guys arrested who were in the van **The Forward** - a respected Jewish newspaper in New York :smack: **Concluded** - means it is definitively established as a fact **At least two** - means two for sure and for others it may not be conclusive; usually used when there`s more going on **Mossad operatives** - agents of Israeli intelligence :smack: That is undisputed fact. Now, come back and whine some more. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-robert-fisk-all-hes-cracked-up-to-be/569039/57 "2011-01-27T19:20:15Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > It clearly states from the 20/20 transcript You mean, like I specifically cited and quoted, already? Yah… > [@newcomer](#): > > a respected Jewish newspaper What do you think their being “Jewish” has to do with anything, at all? This is the second time you’ve brought that up. Why? > [@newcomer](#): > > Concluded- means it is definitively established as a fact Er, no. That’d be “proven”. Concluded means to come to the conclusion that. > [@newcomer](#): > > That is undisputed fact. Again, we have a situation where an unnamed FBI official told Forward that it was concluded that two of the members were Mossad agents. The FBI never came out with a statement to that effect (still waiting for cites from you, newcomer). Even with that being the case, each and every single cite and source agrees that “the dancing Israelis” had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11, so you citing them at all is weird. Yet again, what exactly is your argument, and what logic are you using to support it. This is hardly an unreasonable set of requests. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-robert-fisk-all-hes-cracked-up-to-be/569039/58 "2011-01-27T19:24:03Z")
Newcomer, So then it’s safe to say that you believe that the Mossad was behind 9/11? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-robert-fisk-all-hes-cracked-up-to-be/569039/59 "2011-01-27T19:31:05Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Even with that being the case, each and every single cite and source agrees that “the dancing Israelis” had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11, so you citing them at all is weird. Sure, yeah because following is such a logical explanation: [QUOTE=20/20] WALTERS: OK. Then what were they doing looking at the World Trade Center then? MILLER: They say that they read about the attack on the Internet, went to the roof of the moving company, couldn’t really see it, and then went to the higher ground to get a better view and to take pictures. WALTERS: Well, all right, but why were they smiling? MILLER: Well, that’s been the most difficult question. And the only explana-tions we’ve had, both from the lawyer and from the Israeli government, is chalk-ing that up just to immature conduct. [/QUOTE] Immature conduct :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-robert-fisk-all-hes-cracked-up-to-be/569039/60 "2011-01-27T19:32:36Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Newcomer, > > So then it’s safe to say that you believe that the Mossad was behind 9/11? I’ll answer this as soon as you explain to me surviving passports. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-robert-fisk-all-hes-cracked-up-to-be/569039.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-robert-fisk-all-hes-cracked-up-to-be/569039.md?page=4)