# Is Rolling Stone's UVA rape story a hoax?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rolling-stones-uva-rape-story-a-hoax/706199
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [December 3, 2014, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rolling-stones-uva-rape-story-a-hoax/706199 "2014-12-03T03:33:46Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@JKilez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKilez)
#### Post date: [December 3, 2014, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rolling-stones-uva-rape-story-a-hoax/706199/21 "2014-12-03T15:35:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> It’s the bit about all the broken glass that takes this from plausible to being over-the-top in a Satanic ritual abuse way, IMO. Multiple people with severe lacerations bleeding out all over each other in pitch darkness for several hours isn’t something you just walk away from without somebody noticing.
I have not read the article, but any piece of glass-topped furniture would be made of tempered glass which does not break into shards, but into little pieces. You can easily walk over tempered glass fragments barefoot and have no injuries–they are like gravel.
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### Author:  [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)
#### Post date: [December 3, 2014, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rolling-stones-uva-rape-story-a-hoax/706199/22 "2014-12-03T16:04:38Z")
> [@JKilez](#):
>
> I have not read the article, but any piece of glass-topped furniture would be made of tempered glass which does not break into shards, but into little pieces. You can easily walk over tempered glass fragments barefoot and have no injuries–they are like gravel.
Go have some conventional non-rapey sex on gravel and come back and report. Assuming they didn’t care how the woman felt the men wouldn’t be too happy with what happened to their knees and other parts. And she would still probably require medical attention.
As one of the few or possibly only rape investigators on this board I would have to say the story as written rang false to me. It should be journalism 101. There have been multiple times where a reporter has embellished or created a composite character in order to focus attention on an important issue. (And/or give themselves a boost) But what happens is the underlying issue is ignored and the article itself becomes the story. It seems obvious that UVA has been horribly mishandling sexual assault complaints for years. If it does come out that this story was embellished the university will no longer be the story and they will be let off the hook. That should not happen.
Now I have no way to tell if the story was made up or real. I have a feeling an assault did take place and the author punched up the details to make it read better. A reporter is supposed to give the facts not be reality’s script doctor.
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### Author:  [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)
#### Post date: [December 3, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rolling-stones-uva-rape-story-a-hoax/706199/23 "2014-12-03T16:21:24Z")
> [@JKilez](#):
>
> I have not read the article, but any piece of glass-topped furniture would be made of tempered glass which does not break into shards, but into little pieces.
Not necessarily.
> **[Glass tables: An overlooked safety threat — Harvard Gazette](https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/03/glass-tables-an-overlooked-safety-threat/)**
>
> Many households harbor a threat to young children that safety regulations, surprisingly, have overlooked: glass-topped tables and tables with glass panels. A review by Children’s Hospital Boston, in collaboration with…
> [@](#):
>
> “This is a serious safety hazard with a simple remedy,” says Donald Mays, senior director of product safety and technical policy for Consumers Union. “The use of tempered glass can significantly reduce the more than 20,000 serious injuries incurred each year from the use of common annealed glass in furniture.”
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### Author:  [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)
#### Post date: [December 3, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rolling-stones-uva-rape-story-a-hoax/706199/24 "2014-12-03T17:19:43Z")
> [@JKilez](#):
>
> I have not read the article, but any piece of glass-topped furniture would be made of tempered glass which does not break into shards, but into little pieces. You can easily walk over tempered glass fragments barefoot and have no injuries–they are like gravel.
The article describes “sharp shards digging into her back”, which implies that this gang-rape was going on for hours on top of real broken glass, not safety glass.
The article goes on to have her “recognize” one of her assailants and describe his facial expressions (despite being in pitch darkness) and saying things like “We all had to do it, so you do, too” - implying that _every single member of this frat_ is a serial rapist and that every single one of these routine gang-rapes goes unreported. If this happened as described, it’s a wonder that nobody bled to death or that the police never noticed the room covered with blood.
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### Author:  [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)
#### Post date: [December 3, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rolling-stones-uva-rape-story-a-hoax/706199/25 "2014-12-03T17:47:48Z")
Janet Cooke’s story about “Jimmy” the grammar school heroin addict was a hoax, because Jimmy never existed, and Cooke made up the whole story.
The UVA rape story is not a hoax in that sense, because “Jackie” is almost certainly a real person who really did tell a horrifying story to reporter Sabrina Rubin Erdely. I don’t believe Erdely falsified the story- I believe she accurately transcribed what a real young woman told her.
The question is, did Erdely do anything BESIDES transcribe what that young women told her? In subsequent interviews, Erdely has evaded the question of whether she even knows the names of the men “Jackie” says raped her.
If she does know their names, it is beyond belief that she didn’t talk to them (or at least attempt to interview them) to get their side of the story. Nor do I see any evidence that she tried to interview the “friends” Jackie says she met immediately after the rape, and who allegedly urged her not to report the crime.
I do not know what really happened. It’s entirely possible that Jackie was raped in exactly the manner she describes. But Erdely was such a lazy and irresponsible reporter that her entire story is open to doubt.
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### Author:  [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)
#### Post date: [December 3, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rolling-stones-uva-rape-story-a-hoax/706199/26 "2014-12-03T19:06:59Z")
Obviously, I don’t know what happened or didn’t, but I do hope the real story gets fully reported. Accusations of rape are serious things.
One thing about the Duke Lacrosse case is that while it was a horrible thing, in a matter of weeks everyone knew the accusation was bullshit. There are still people today who \*still \*think there was an epidemic of football players at Colorado raping women in the early 2000’s. There wasn’t. Not a single football player ever got indicted - not convicted, but not even indicted. There was one case brought against the University in Federal Court, but it was dismissed by the judge.
The football team was sent into a tailspin they still haven’t recovered from.
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### Author:  [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)
#### Post date: [December 3, 2014, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rolling-stones-uva-rape-story-a-hoax/706199/27 "2014-12-03T20:53:49Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#):
>
> One thing about the Duke Lacrosse case is that while it was a horrible thing, in a matter of weeks everyone knew the accusation was bullshit.
For values of ‘everyone’ that exclude, among others, the NY Times - which on Aug 25 2006 (a bit more than five months after the incident), at a time when the weakness of the case was becoming increasingly evident, published a 5600-word front-page article that seriously reinvigorated prosecutor Nifong. It was another 4 months before charges were dismissed.
Also note a recent book by William D. Cohan: _The Price of Silence: The Duke Lacrosse Scandal, the Power of the Elite, and the Corruption of Our Great Universities_ which, amazingly, still contends that “something did happen in that bathroom”. For insight into the myriad problems with this book, check this [_New Republic_ review](http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117383/william-d-cohans-duke-lacrosse-case-book-gets-many-things-wrong) by Stuart Taylor Jr.
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### Author:  [@JKilez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKilez)
#### Post date: [December 3, 2014, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rolling-stones-uva-rape-story-a-hoax/706199/28 "2014-12-03T21:51:51Z")
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> The article describes “sharp shards digging into her back”, which implies that this gang-rape was going on for hours on top of real broken glass, not safety glass.
She still could have been referring to tempered glass fragments. While they are not long, gash-inducing, daggers of glass, they are still pointy, jagged little rocks, that would not be the least bit comfortable if you were pushed into them, and would probably be injurious, if only superficially so.
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### Author:  [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)
#### Post date: [December 3, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rolling-stones-uva-rape-story-a-hoax/706199/29 "2014-12-03T22:00:05Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#):
>
> A lot of rapes are unreported, for a lot of different reasons. I agree that a police report should be checked for, but the absences of a report does not mean that this was a hoax.
And there’s a looooot of room in between “gang rape” and “hoax,” including many things that would leave everyone involved ashamed of themselves and not wanting their real name attached.
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### Author:  [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2014, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rolling-stones-uva-rape-story-a-hoax/706199/30 "2014-12-04T05:40:21Z")
> [@Loach](#):
>
> Go have some conventional non-rapey sex on gravel and come back and report. Assuming they didn’t care how the woman felt the men wouldn’t be too happy with what happened to their knees and other parts. And she would still probably require medical attention.
>
> As one of the few or possibly only rape investigators on this board I would have to say the story as written rang false to me. It should be journalism 101…
In addition to the issue of the broken glass, there seems to be a much larger problem with the story, which I haven’t seen anyone mention yet. We’re being asked to believe that a woman was gang-raped violently, against her will, while conscious, in a crowded frat house during the middle of a party.
So the obvious question is: _Why didn’t she scream for help?_
She would have been heard by everybody in the building, and probably by many others outside the building. (The Phi Kappa Psi frat house at UVA is only a few feet away from other residential buildings.) It seems highly improbable that a group of men would have planned a gang rape in a circumstance when the number of people nearby was at a maximum, and the victim could easily have gotten their attention. The claim that such incidents were planned repeatedly, as part of some initiation ritual, and pulled off without exposure until now–that’s just beyond belief.
A secondary issue is that if Jackie called her friend immediately after leaving the building, then she had her phone with her. Why didn’t she call 911 instead?
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### Author:  [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2014, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rolling-stones-uva-rape-story-a-hoax/706199/31 "2014-12-04T05:49:56Z")
That last bit rings _absolutely_ true.
As to screaming–I assume such a party would be blasting its music loud enough that screaming in one room wouldn’t be heard in the next.
(This is not to say I credit the story.)
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### Author:  [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2014, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rolling-stones-uva-rape-story-a-hoax/706199/32 "2014-12-04T10:55:33Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#):
>
> In addition to the issue of the broken glass, there seems to be a much larger problem with the story, which I haven’t seen anyone mention yet. We’re being asked to believe that a woman was gang-raped violently, against her will, while conscious, in a crowded frat house during the middle of a party.
>
> So the obvious question is: _Why didn’t she scream for help?_
The article does address that…
> [@](#):
>
> At that same moment, she says, she detected movement in the room – and felt someone bump into her. Jackie began to scream.
>
> “Shut up,” she heard a man’s voice say as a body barreled into her, tripping her backward and sending them both crashing through a low glass table. There was a heavy person on top of her, spreading open her thighs, and another person kneeling on her hair, hands pinning down her arms, sharp shards digging into her back, and excited male voices rising all around her. When yet another hand clamped over her mouth, Jackie bit it, and the hand became a fist that punched her in the face.
> [@](#):
>
> A secondary issue is that if Jackie called her friend immediately after leaving the building, then she had her phone with her. Why didn’t she call 911 instead?
That seems like a normal response to me. It’s a humiliating crime, and victims blaming still happens. Asking why someone didn’t scream or report their crime seem like strange reasons to doubt a rape.
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### Author:  [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2014, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rolling-stones-uva-rape-story-a-hoax/706199/33 "2014-12-04T11:33:45Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#):
>
> That last bit rings _absolutely_ true.
>
> As to screaming–I assume such a party would be blasting its music loud enough that screaming in one room wouldn’t be heard in the next.
>
> (This is not to say I credit the story.)
I agree I have no problem believing that could happen. It is ridiculous to believe that everyone would scream. There certain have been plenty of cases when the victim has not screamed. And certainly not everyone reports sexual assault.
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### Author:  [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2014, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rolling-stones-uva-rape-story-a-hoax/706199/34 "2014-12-04T12:49:56Z")
> [@Cinnamon\_Imp](#):
>
> [Sometimes the bad guys win.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4031614&postcount=1) by Master Wang-Ka.
I just read quickly the beginning of the post, but if I’m not mistaking him for someone else, **Master Wang-Ka** was making up stories all the time. Is there any reason to assume this one was true?
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### Author:  [@Wilson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wilson)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2014, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rolling-stones-uva-rape-story-a-hoax/706199/35 "2014-12-04T14:40:30Z")
> [@clairobscur](#):
>
> I just read quickly the beginning of the post, but if I’m not mistaking him for someone else, **Master Wang-Ka** was making up stories all the time. Is there any reason to assume this one was true?
Could you be mixing up **WallyM7** and **Master Wang-Ka**? Although Wally’s thing was plagiarism more than making things up. I don’t remember any accusations of making up stories being attached to **Master Wang-Ka** , but I could have missed it.
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### Author:  [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rolling-stones-uva-rape-story-a-hoax/706199/36 "2014-12-04T15:37:53Z")
> [@Wilson](#):
>
> Could you be mixing up **WallyM7** and **Master Wang-Ka**? Although Wally’s thing was plagiarism more than making things up. I don’t remember any accusations of making up stories being attached to **Master Wang-Ka** , but I could have missed it.
WankKa’s stuff was very clearly fiction but it was part of his schtick to claim that it was all true. The difference between him and Wally is that Wank’s stuff was his own original work.
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### Author:  [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rolling-stones-uva-rape-story-a-hoax/706199/37 "2014-12-04T16:22:18Z")
UVA alum here. I was pretty fished-in by the story, despite a number of questionable details. It’s worth noting that the frat in question had the same reputation back when I was a student there that it apparently has now, but (A) the frats are hardly the rape factories they’re depicted as being, and (B) a fair number of sexual assaults on the grounds don’t involve fraternity members at all. Even the title of the original RS article–“A Rape on Campus”–showed sloppy disregard for the facts (like the fact that it occurred off-grounds, a pretty big reason University police weren’t involved in investigating it). Also, why didn’t “Jackie’s” pals get her to University Hospital to treat the lacerations on her back? Did those leave scars, and did the RS reporter see them?
There were also little things. The article or its follow-up quoted another victim as saying she lived “off-campus,” a term UVA students never, ever use about their own school. While this detail might seem nit-picky, it opens the possibility that she wasn’t a student or was misquoted. Neither of these possibilities bodes well for the article’s credibility.
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### Author:  [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rolling-stones-uva-rape-story-a-hoax/706199/38 "2014-12-04T16:28:37Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#):
>
> (like the fact that it occurred off-grounds, a pretty big reason University police weren’t involved in investigating it).
That is new information to me. That does clear up some things.
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### Author:  [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rolling-stones-uva-rape-story-a-hoax/706199/39 "2014-12-04T16:39:00Z")
> [@Loach](#):
>
> That is new information to me. That does clear up some things.
Fraternities are off University property. (This might be true at most colleges?) The story actually mentions that “Jackie” was incorrectly told that Charlottesville police had no jurisdiction there. Dean Eramo, who comes off very badly in the story, apparently gives the young women a choice: Go to the police and press charges, or let her set up some kind of confidential, nonbinding confrontation with the accused. Most of the women choose the latter, which ties Eramo (and the University)'s hands about expelling anybody.
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### Author:  [@missouri65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missouri65)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rolling-stones-uva-rape-story-a-hoax/706199/40 "2014-12-04T19:22:03Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#):
>
> There were also little things. The article or its follow-up quoted another victim as saying she lived “off-campus,” a term UVA students never, ever use about their own school. While this detail might seem nit-picky, it opens the possibility that she wasn’t a student or was misquoted. Neither of these possibilities bodes well for the article’s credibility.
That’s pretty common terminology. What would a UVA student say instead?
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