# Is Romney hiding immorality, criminality, both, or neither? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 9, 2012, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-hiding-immorality-criminality-both-or-neither/627740 "2012-07-09T22:57:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-hiding-immorality-criminality-both-or-neither/627740/121 "2012-07-16T21:02:44Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > So, how isn’t it? Can two people simultaneously own and operate the same yacht? Two people can simultaneously profit from the same transaction. If that wasn’t true, there would be no such thing as trade. (As a matter of fact, two people _can_ simultaneously own and operate the same yacht. Or airplane. Or bicycle.) I do not have to make my profit at your expense, or at the expense of anyone else. I certainly wish that the element of ignorance that thinks that I only make a buck by taking a buck from someone else would just dry up and blow away. ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-hiding-immorality-criminality-both-or-neither/627740/122 "2012-07-16T21:07:17Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Do you think that the ridiculous straw-manning that you are prone to actually helps your case? > > Or do you actually think that anyone who levies a critique at a wealthy person actually wants to take their wealth away, or thinks that we should murder them? > > Really, it simply makes you look foolish. 1. No, I don’t. But I wasn’t trying to “help my case” because my case needed no help. And I often use the ridiculous to underscore something else that is ridiculous. Deal with it. 2. I have often perceived an irrational hatred of the rich _just because they’re rich_, which is often translated into a contrived moral justification for depriving them of their (undeserved) wealth. 3. No, it makes _you_ think I look foolish. That bothers me not at all, because you are of no importance to me–you’re just a screen name and a few lines of text. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-hiding-immorality-criminality-both-or-neither/627740/123 "2012-07-16T22:47:38Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The best thing that Romney has going for him is that the Olympics will give us a two week break from the campaign. Or the Olympics will provide a convenient hook for stories about how [Romney lobbied the Federal government](http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/18/10444876-salt-lake-city-olympics-earmarks-a-double-edged-sword-for-romney?lite) for tens of millions of dollars to bail out “the most expensive games in U.S. history”: > [@](#): > > Senate lobbying records show that the Salt Lake City Olympics Committee under Romney spent $3.5 million employing five lobbying firms in addition to its own in-house lobbying shop. Among their goals: winning federal earmarks that included $60 million for “perimeter” security; $15.8 million for “international sporting competitions”; $3 million for an extension of a Salt Lake City light rail project; as well as millions more for communications equipment, sewer projects and other programs aimed at supporting the Olympics. > > The overall federal cost of the 2002 Olympics has been estimated at about $1.5 billion, although Romney defenders say much of this was put in place before he took over the Olympics Committee in 1999. But Romney later touted his efforts in his book about the Winter Olympics, “Turnaround,” writing that he directed his chief Washington lobbyist “to bring in more federal funding than had ever been appropriated for any Olympics, summer or winter.” > > And he made his success in doing so a selling point when he ran for governor of Massachusetts in 2002. “I was successful in organizing the Olympics, got record funds from the federal government," he said then. Or maybe it’ll be a good time to remind everyone about how the making of those special 9/11/2001 patriotic Olympic pins was [outsourced to China](http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsmoviecricket/54042813-66/pins-lake-romney-salt.html.csp), and how many of the Utah Olympic pins featured… [Mitt Romney!](http://thepoliticalcarnival.net/2012/07/15/photoh-mitt-romney-themed-narcissistic-salt-lake-city-olympics-pins/) Meanwhile, as Bain’s record comes under increasing scrutiny, even business-friendly folks like Bloomberg are being critical: > [@](#): > > [Romney’s Bain Yielded Private Gains, Socialized Losses](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-15/romney-s-bain-yielded-private-gains-socialized-losses.html) > What’s clear from a review of the public record during his management of the private-equity firm Bain Capital from 1985 to 1999 is that Romney was fabulously successful in generating high returns for its investors. He did so, in large part, through heavy use of tax-deductible debt, usually to finance outsized dividends for the firm’s partners and investors. When some of the investments went bad, workers and creditors felt most of the pain. Romney privatized the gains and socialized the losses. > > What’s less clear is how his skills are relevant to the job of overseeing the U.S. economy, strengthening competitiveness and looking out for the welfare of the general public, especially the middle class. > > Thanks to leverage, 10 of roughly 67 major deals by Bain Capital during Romney’s watch produced about 70 percent of the firm’s profits. Four of those 10 deals, as well as others, later wound up in bankruptcy. And we haven’t even gotten to the [junk bonds and Michael Milken](http://articles.boston.com/2012-06-24/business/32383267_1_junk-bonds-bain-capital-refinances-debt) yet! ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-hiding-immorality-criminality-both-or-neither/627740/124 "2012-07-17T00:04:29Z")
The one point I find interesting yet seemingly absent entirely from the public thrashing on this issue is the quesiton of sole ownership. The Romney camp is defending hard on operational/administrative control because they don;t want him to be tarred by activities after Feb 1999 (job losses, bankrupt companies, discarded fetuses, et al). I can certainly understand why. The Obama campaign is trying hard to show that he was an active force in the company until 2002 (SEC filings, taking a salray, etc.) And I can understand why they want to do that, too. What seems to be ignored altogether is teh idea that Romney was the sole shareholder of Bain during that same period. I don’t think the Romney camp is disputing that. Which seems to imply that from both sides of the political debate it is presumed that **ownership comes without responsibility.** How strange. I don’t recall when last I experienced such a sense of dislocation from my political community. Even the CNN article, and the factcheck finding it references, appear to accept as given that simply being the owner of a business does not in itself carry any expectation or obligation for the decisions and actions being taken by the company’s officers. “Hey, he was just cashing the checks - you can;t blame him for how the money was made.” It is a fascinating and somewhat depressing illustration of the way wealth is viewed in modern America. For myself, I believe that Mitt Romney is teling the truth when he says that he was not involved in the administrative workings of Bain (and subsidiaries) after Feb 1999. I also believe that he continued to be listed as CEO & sole shareholder, that he accepted $100k/year for “doing nothing” and felt he was justified in doing so, that he profited directly from his ownership of Bain and was i a position to significantly affect comany direction had he desired to do so as sole shareholder, and that the SEC filings listing him as CEO may represent a violation of the letter of the law but probably had neither the intent nor the efect of misleading any investors interested in the company. And I believe that none of the above absolves Mitt Romne from responsibility for how his money was being made. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-hiding-immorality-criminality-both-or-neither/627740/125 "2012-07-17T00:10:54Z")
> [@Spiritus too](#): > > I also believe that he continued to be listed as CEO & sole shareholder, that he accepted $100k/year for “doing nothing” and felt he was justified in doing so, that he profited directly from his ownership of Bain Nitpick. He accepted AT LEAST 100K per year. We actually have no idea how much, just that it is listed as greater than 100K. It is likely much greater. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-hiding-immorality-criminality-both-or-neither/627740/126 "2012-07-17T16:01:15Z")
The issue of Romney’s tax returns and his involvement with Bain really should have been fully explored during the Republican primaries. But except for a brief effort by Newt Gingrich, none of his rivals went there. And now the Republican Party is paying the price. Sweet! ---
**Author:** ![Savannah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Savannah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Savannah)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-hiding-immorality-criminality-both-or-neither/627740/127 "2012-07-17T16:42:56Z")
This was interesting reading: [McCain 2008 Oppo File | PDF | Mitt Romney | American Government](http://www.scribd.com/doc/78582788/McCain-2008-Oppo-File) “McCain Campaign’s Full 2008 File On Mitt Romney” ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-hiding-immorality-criminality-both-or-neither/627740/128 "2012-07-17T18:01:35Z")
> [@Savannah](#): > > This was interesting reading: [McCain 2008 Oppo File | PDF | Mitt Romney | American Government](http://www.scribd.com/doc/78582788/McCain-2008-Oppo-File) > > “McCain Campaign’s Full 2008 File On Mitt Romney” Heh, there is probably more in there that will make right-wingers go crazy then liberals. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-hiding-immorality-criminality-both-or-neither/627740/129 "2012-07-17T18:07:01Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > might seem strange to you but it is a very important part of the lds faith and has been since it’s founding. If the practice had just begun during the Vietnam war maybe you could make a case. He chose to practice the LDS lifestyle and further the Mormon agenda while other young men were dying to protect real Christians from communism. Boy it’s fun when you can throw away any sense of decency. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-hiding-immorality-criminality-both-or-neither/627740/130 "2012-07-17T18:11:51Z")
Now Romney is saying he does want to give any ammunition to Obama to distort by releasing more tax returns. He really is sticking to the “What’s he hiding?” problem; It’s safe to assume that’s preferable to what’s actually in them. Obama hasn’t even gotten to attacking Romney on his massive and wide-ranging flip-flopping. I assume that will come in the debates. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-hiding-immorality-criminality-both-or-neither/627740/131 "2012-07-17T18:12:49Z")
In the “Thanks for the help but you’re not helping” file, McCain pushed back today against jokes that he looked at Romney’s record and immediately picked Palin by saying > [@](#): > > Oh come on, because we thought that Sarah Palin was the better candidate. Why did we not take Pawlenty, why did we not take any of the other 10 other people. Why didn’t I? Because we had a better candidate, the same way with all the others So it wasn’t Romney’s tax returns, it’s just that he’s not as good as Palin. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-hiding-immorality-criminality-both-or-neither/627740/132 "2012-07-17T18:55:55Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > In the “Thanks for the help but you’re not helping” file, McCain pushed back today against jokes that he looked at Romney’s record and immediately picked Palin by saying > So it wasn’t Romney’s tax returns, it’s just that he’s not as good as Palin. Has a political party ever be as unenthusiastic about a candidate for President as the Republicans seem to be about Mitt? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-hiding-immorality-criminality-both-or-neither/627740/133 "2012-07-17T19:33:40Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > Now Romney is saying he does want to give any ammunition to Obama to distort by releasing more tax returns. One of _those_ people has no business questioning a _real American_, doncha know. It simply _is not done_. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-hiding-immorality-criminality-both-or-neither/627740/134 "2012-07-17T19:34:51Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > One of _those_ people has no business questioning a _real American_, doncha know. Yeah, that must be it. He’s not releasing his tax returns because he’s a racist. That makes loads of sense. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-hiding-immorality-criminality-both-or-neither/627740/135 "2012-07-17T20:14:08Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > In the “Thanks for the help but you’re not helping” file, McCain pushed back today against jokes that he looked at Romney’s record and immediately picked Palin by saying > So it wasn’t Romney’s tax returns, it’s just that he’s not as good as Palin. Is it true that Palin is not invited to the Republican convention? Maybe Mitt shouldn’t be either. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-hiding-immorality-criminality-both-or-neither/627740/136 "2012-07-17T20:14:10Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Yeah, that must be it. He’s not releasing his tax returns because he’s a racist. That makes loads of sense. Now, now, Chumley; there are plenty of white folks among _those_ people. You know, the wrong sort, the plebians who can count the houses they own on the fingers of one hand… the ones who are simply _not our kind_… ---
**Author:** ![2ManyTacos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/3da27b/32.png) [@2ManyTacos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2ManyTacos)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-hiding-immorality-criminality-both-or-neither/627740/137 "2012-07-17T21:39:59Z")
This whole idea of _retroactive retirement_ is one of the most ridiculous instances of verbal gymnastics that I’ve ever heard. Seriously, the average voter is going to hear that phrase and immediately think, “Retroactive retirement? What the FUCK does that even mean? Bullshit.” Hell, I pay attention to this nonsense far more than most of the electorate and I can’t even fucking square this shit away. But I want to move onto an even larger point. I think that a few posters on here have already pointed this out, but seriously, it makes NO FUCKING DIFFERENCE - none, zero, zilch, nada - whether Romney was actively involved in managing Bain post-February 1999 or whether he really had distanced himself from the company after that period. These documents clearly show that Mittens continued to be the CEO and receive an annual SALARY during that time; he could have been living on the fucking MOON and it wouldn’t have made any difference. He owned the damn firm, he was the CEO, so all of these cases of outsourcing (or offshoring, whatever the fuck they’re calling it) that Bain encouraged and profited from during those years happened under Romney’s watch, and he is responsible for them. Period. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-hiding-immorality-criminality-both-or-neither/627740/138 "2012-07-17T23:37:37Z")
> [@2ManyTacos](#): > > This whole idea of _retroactive retirement_ is one of the most ridiculous instances of verbal gymnastics that I’ve ever heard. Seriously, the average voter is going to hear that phrase and immediately think, “Retroactive retirement? What the FUCK does that even mean? Bullshit.” Hell, I pay attention to this nonsense far more than most of the electorate and I can’t even fucking square this shit away. Heh. At least the statements “I didn’t inhale” and “I was for it before I was against it” convey a clear understanding of what the speaker was asserting. > [@](#): > > But I want to move onto an even larger point. > > I think that a few posters on here have already pointed this out, but seriously, it makes NO FUCKING DIFFERENCE - none, zero, zilch, nada - whether Romney was actively involved in managing Bain post-February 1999 or whether he really had distanced himself from the company after that period. These documents clearly show that Mittens continued to be the CEO and receive an annual SALARY during that time; he could have been living on the fucking MOON and it wouldn’t have made any difference. He owned the damn firm, he was the CEO, so all of these cases of outsourcing (or offshoring, whatever the fuck they’re calling it) that Bain encouraged and profited from during those years happened under Romney’s watch, and he is responsible for them. Period. Indeed. By Romney’s logic, since Captain Hazelwood was not actively directing the maneuvers of the _Exxon Valdez_ when it ran aground, it is unfair to blame or criticize him for the resulting oil spill. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-hiding-immorality-criminality-both-or-neither/627740/139 "2012-07-17T23:48:52Z")
> [@Drum\_God](#): > > I disagree that it is “a lot of irrelevance blowing in the wind.” Romney himself made it relevant by citing his experience at Bain as qualification for the White House. Then, when people ask him about that experience, he says that he wasn’t there when the nasty stuff happened. So, what experience does he have at Bain that would make him a good president? Damned if I know. It’s not relevant because there is NOTHING that can make a Republican acceptable as a President. _All Republicans are unsuitable to be POTUS_ is the axiom to start with. Specific things that change the _degree_ of unsuitability do not change that binary fact. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-hiding-immorality-criminality-both-or-neither/627740/140 "2012-07-17T23:51:22Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > Actually, kaylasdad99 was talking about Romney’s offshore bank accounts, not his time at Bain. Or not at Bain. Or retroactively not at Bain. Or…😕 Not really. I was talking about the fact that he’s a Republican. That fact can’t be mitigated. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-hiding-immorality-criminality-both-or-neither/627740.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-hiding-immorality-criminality-both-or-neither/627740.md?page=8)