# Is Romney secretly brilliant? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 4, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-secretly-brilliant/630360 "2012-08-04T00:23:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-secretly-brilliant/630360/61 "2012-08-07T14:46:54Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DOESN’T TAX WEALTH. This much I agree with. Actually, the federal government subsidizes wealth. That big fancy house with the huge local property tax bill? You get to put that on your schedule A along with the interest on the mortgage you bought it with. Thus, the government is in effect paying for part of your big fancy house. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-secretly-brilliant/630360/62 "2012-08-07T14:52:28Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I have wondered whether there’s a fakeout here. Maybe Romney has 3 good years of returns and a landmine on the 4th or 5th. So releasing 2 gives him an option to release an extra benign year and keep the bombshells unseen. Then again, I understand that there was a [2009 tax amnesty](http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2012/07/17/romney_s_tax_returns_is_the_2009_swiss_bank_account_amnesty_what_he_doesn_t_want_us_to_see_.html) for foreign accounts. So while 2010 and 2011 may be clean, 2009 could be problematic. Or not: it’s difficult to tell with borderline years. The theory that his 2009 return contains at least one giant stinkbomb (not necessarily taking amnesty for previous hanky-panky) makes sense in light of the fact that Romney provided years of tax returns to the McCain VP vetting committee (presumably with the expectation that he would not be immediately laughed out of consideration). Obviously, these returns did not include 2009 (even if the older returns included indications of the aforementioned hanky-panky, they would probably be concealable in a miasma of green-eyeshade fiscalbabble and thus not as damaging as a straightforward 2009 amnesty filing). ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-secretly-brilliant/630360/63 "2012-08-07T14:56:18Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > He’s thinking the tax form release will blow over if he ignores it. His campaign can’t even execute _that_ strategy – they just hung another eye-catching lampshade on the issue by sending everybody and his brother to go on the talk shows with a “Harry Reid Is A Big Mean Doodoo Head” script. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-secretly-brilliant/630360/64 "2012-08-07T15:02:41Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > His campaign can’t even execute _that_ strategy – they just hung another eye-catching lampshade on the issue by sending everybody and his brother to go on the talk shows with a “Harry Reid Is A Big Mean Doodoo Head” script. I’m starting to think it would be quite hard to cast a movie about the Romney campaign, now that Don Knotts is gone and Tim Conway is getting too old. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-secretly-brilliant/630360/65 "2012-08-07T15:11:48Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > 1. These stories knock Romney off his strongest narrative which is ITES. “ITES” means what? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-secretly-brilliant/630360/66 "2012-08-07T15:17:08Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > If he didn’t make any money over the years that he won’t release, then why not show it to us? Because it would kill his one asserted qualification for the job (Successful Businessman[tm]) deader than disco – inability to make additional money starting at such an already high level takes a special form of incompetence. (Having a zero or negative _taxable_ income while net assets grow tike Topsy would get right back to the previously raised problem of destroying the “ONOZ the Job Creators[tm] are being overtaxed!” narrative.) ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-secretly-brilliant/630360/67 "2012-08-07T15:37:33Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > “ITES” means what? It’s the economy, stupid. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-secretly-brilliant/630360/68 "2012-08-07T15:40:37Z")
Problem with \*that \*is many more people blame the mess on _Bush_, and the policies Romney wants to reinstate, than on Obama. But yeah, that’s the only weapon Romney has - “The economy sucks, and I’m not Obama”. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-secretly-brilliant/630360/69 "2012-08-07T15:42:49Z")
Taxation, on net, puts more money into capital markets than it takes out of them. The purpose of money is to spend it, and that’s what governments do after they get it through taxation. The money has to keep moving around in order to do anything. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-secretly-brilliant/630360/70 "2012-08-07T16:56:37Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > Actually, quite a few people are saying exactly that–that he is refusing to disclose his returns because they conceal some impropriety. I have not seen anyone in the Obama campaign suggest that Romney has committed a any criminal acts. I am not going to vouch for every joe sixpack with an opinion, I’m sure some of them are misinformed. The only ones that count are those in the campaign, or the hierarchy of the Democratic Party, or elected Democrats. Of those, nobody is saying he did anything improper. But he still has to own the fact that he pays a much lower tax rate than most people in the middle class, and if he paid no tax for even one year, it will be a big negative for his campaign, even if it was completely legal. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-secretly-brilliant/630360/71 "2012-08-07T17:20:57Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I have not seen anyone in the Obama campaign suggest that Romney has committed a any criminal acts. I am not going to vouch for every joe sixpack with an opinion, I’m sure some of them are misinformed. The only ones that count are those in the campaign, or the hierarchy of the Democratic Party, or elected Democrats. Of those, nobody is saying he did anything improper. > > But he still has to own the fact that he pays a much lower tax rate than most people in the middle class, and if he paid no tax for even one year, it will be a big negative for his campaign, even if it was completely legal. I think the current conservative spin is to work on lowering the bar. I’m hearing a lot now of how “they” are accusing Romney of all kinds of felonies and “they” want to see his returns as proof of this. As I said, I’m guessing these rumors are actually being put out by conservatives who are really acting in support of Romney. When the returns do get released (because let’s face it, it’s going to happen at this point) they’ll have made the story about felonies - and that story will be false. Meanwhile, the real accusations from his opponents - that Romney legally pays a shockingly small amount of taxes - will be proven true but will get buried on a back page. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-secretly-brilliant/630360/72 "2012-08-07T17:50:14Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > More generally, there are all manner of tax dodges that are technically legal but politically damaging. There’s a trope among accountants: the poor evade taxes, while the rich avoid taxes. And some of these tax avoidance schemes can be pretty sleazy. Frankly I’m surprised he hasn’t managed his affairs so that he could release 5 or 7 years of taxes. He’s been angling for the Presidency since at least the early 1990s after all. To put it another way, Romney got a $70000+ tax break on his horse. His _horse_. I wish my hobbies were tax deductible. The only way Romney would be considered brilliant is if he’s playing the perfect role of a rich tax avoider, like Stephen Colbert but in real life, and the ultimate plan is to use himself to show how utterly insane the tax codes are in order to build momentum to change it ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-secretly-brilliant/630360/73 "2012-08-07T18:00:12Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I have not seen anyone in the Obama campaign suggest that Romney has committed a any criminal acts. I can’t find the actual quote but Obama’s campaign created the innuendo that Romney had committed illegal acts. ALthough more subtle than Reid, it is clear that the Democrat strategy is to make implications rather than direct attacks so that when Pubs respond to what was implied, the Dems can say, “We didn’t say that.” ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-secretly-brilliant/630360/74 "2012-08-07T18:03:26Z")
He’s probably about like W. Has an IQ around 115, thinks he has an IQ of around 200, and devotes all his time to getting over. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-secretly-brilliant/630360/75 "2012-08-07T19:13:05Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I can’t find the actual quote but Obama’s campaign created the innuendo that Romney had committed illegal acts. You are mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-secretly-brilliant/630360/76 "2012-08-07T20:26:40Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > You are mistaken. How polite. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-secretly-brilliant/630360/77 "2012-08-07T20:28:22Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > How polite. I was feeling charitable. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-secretly-brilliant/630360/78 "2012-08-07T20:35:54Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I can’t find the actual quote but Obama’s campaign created the innuendo that Romney had committed illegal acts. ALthough more subtle than Reid, it is clear that the Democrat strategy is to make implications rather than direct attacks so that when Pubs respond to what was implied, the Dems can say, “We didn’t say that.” I suspect you’re thinking of the Obama campaign aide who pointed out that either (a) Romney was in charge of Bain from 99 to 2001, as specified in the company’s SEC filings or (b) Romney was not in charge of Bain during that period, as he has since averred And that, if (b) is true, then he lied on his SEC filings, and that lying on SEC filings is in fact criminal. The Romney campaign I believe responded that he had “retroactively retired” which of course solved everything. Needless to say, for anyone who can actually understand English or basic logic, the point of the argument is that Romney is lying now, not that he is a criminal. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-secretly-brilliant/630360/79 "2012-08-07T20:43:37Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > You are mistaken. > [@](#): > > Obama deputy campaign manager Stephanie Cutter says the campaign never accused Mitt Romney of being a felon, yet at the end of an interview with CNN’s Wolf Blitzer says she does not regret **bringing up the possibility** that Romney may have committed a felony. > > “No, absolutely not. It’s a fact. If you’re signing federal documents knowing them to be false, it’s a felony. Anybody who works in the federal government knows that,” Cutter said at the end of the same interview when asked if she regrets mentioning the word felony in a previous interview. (emphasis added) [cite](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2012/07/16/obama_campaigns_cutter_we_never_accused_romney_of_being_a_felon.html) > [@](#): > > Asked whether the Obama campaign was accusing Romney of breaking the law, the campaign wouldn’t say. But campaign lawyer Bob Bauer said in a statement: > > “Romney and Bain claim that he was not involved with Bain, but Bain and its portfolio companies in their required filings under the Securities Exchange Act continuously certified to the Securities and Exchange Commission say precisely the opposite–asserting without qualification that he was a controlling person, fully in charge of Bain, under the Federal securities law. Under normal circumstances, the question of the truth of this representation would result in an investigation by the SEC into possible criminal, as well as civil, violations of the law." [cite](http://www.allnews1067.com/abc_news/article/Romney_Camp:_Team_Obama_SEC_Accusations_'A_New_Low'/80B18DDFCC8011E181F7FEFDADE6840A/) So is it your position that 1. Stephanie Cutter and Bob Bauer are not associated with the Obama campaign? 2. They are not implying that Romney committed a crime. 3. Their phrasing does not allow for deniability i.e. if Romney says that Obama is accusing him of commiting a crime them Obama cannot say they never said that. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-secretly-brilliant/630360/80 "2012-08-07T20:46:04Z")
I took the comments about “illegal acts” to be referring to the tax record issue, not the Bain filings issue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-secretly-brilliant/630360.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-romney-secretly-brilliant/630360.md?page=5)