# Is rudeness ever appropriate? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 11, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rudeness-ever-appropriate/643721 "2012-12-11T18:00:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rudeness-ever-appropriate/643721/41 "2012-12-12T07:00:57Z")
> [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](#): > > Is it rude to plow through idiots who don’t stand to the side when the subway doors open? No. In fact, Emily Post states that it is quite polite to provide a gentle reminder in the form of striking their kneecaps with a baton. ETA: The same principle of etiquette applies in elevators. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rudeness-ever-appropriate/643721/42 "2012-12-12T07:34:19Z")
Being rude is by definition inappropriate. Using loud assertive language to deal with aggressive obnoxious people or to defend yourself is not rude at all. It’s completely compatible with being polite. ---
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rudeness-ever-appropriate/643721/43 "2012-12-12T07:34:45Z")
Courtesy costs you nothing. ~VOW ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rudeness-ever-appropriate/643721/44 "2012-12-12T07:50:06Z")
> [@OleOneEye](#): > > Doesn’t that make sense? I feel not only rude but selfish. I don’t understand how other people justify themselves. I feel resentful about my obligations, but don’t know how to get out of them. Chatting about the weather or a total stranger’s hemorrhoids is not an obligation, first of all. It’s called “small talk” or “medical privacy” for a reason. Secondly, no one owns your personal time and your personal space but you. Anyone who wants access requires your consent. There are cases where this principle is glaringly obvious, such as cases of sexual assault. Where it may be less obvious, rest assured, consent is consent. People can ask (politely), but they’re not entitled. In cases where there’s an existing expectation of consent, such as your job, you’ve consented to this arrangement already – you talk to your boss when he wants you to, in exchange for money. If you saw someone unconscious on the sidewalk, would you call 911? If so, you already fulfill your obligation and are perfectly unselfish in wanting the same for yourself should you ever need it. Saving someone’s life is a quite a bit different than engaging in small talk. And you’re not obligated to give all of yourself away to anyone and everyone just because someone asks or feels entitled to it. Your parents teach you when you’re little – sometimes the answer is no. And still the world doesn’t end. Plus, if you don’t value your time, no one else will either. ---
**Author:** ![OleOneEye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/f14d63/32.png) [@OleOneEye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OleOneEye)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rudeness-ever-appropriate/643721/45 "2012-12-12T08:51:21Z")
[QUOTE=Kaio] Saving someone’s life is a quite a bit different than engaging in small talk. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=FlyByNight512] Calling 911 for someone in trouble is very different from letting a stranger talk your ear off. [/QUOTE] On the surface, it looks that way. But is it really so different? Here’s an example. I was on a bus one time and a guy sat next to me. I had my headphones on, so he tried chatting with the girl facing us. That petered out, so he turned his attentions to me. But I had my headphones on. He kept turning sideways and sticking his face in mine to try to make eye contact but I kept staring straight ahead. When he got off the bus he was shouting about how women don’t want to make conversation. He seemed really angry. He must have been really hurting in his personal life to get that upset about being ignored by a stranger. By not tending to his hurts, I was doing the equivalent of not calling 911 for someone bleeding on the sidewalk. I try to rationalize my rude behavior toward him by reminding myself that his behavior was … unexpected. But do two wrongs make a right? ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rudeness-ever-appropriate/643721/46 "2012-12-12T09:35:01Z")
> [@OleOneEye](#): > > On the surface, it looks that way. But is it really so different? > > Here’s an example. I was on a bus one time and a guy sat next to me. I had my headphones on, so he tried chatting with the girl facing us. That petered out, so he turned his attentions to me. But I had my headphones on. **He kept turning sideways and sticking his face in mine to try to make eye contact but I kept staring straight ahead. When he got off the bus he was shouting about how women don’t want to make conversation. He seemed really angry.** > > He must have been really hurting in his personal life to get that upset about being ignored by a stranger. By not tending to his hurts, I was doing the equivalent of not calling 911 for someone bleeding on the sidewalk. > > I try to rationalize my rude behavior toward him by reminding myself that his behavior was … unexpected. But do two wrongs make a right? He was exceedingly intrusive, and you actually owed him NOTHING! It is NOT equivalent to not calling 911. He’s a grown man, he can take care of his own emotional needs. The fact that he focused on your gender tells me he was chatting you up, and had you engaged in conversation it probably would have trended very personal rather quickly, that’s why his conversation with the other woman petered out, because she caught on. We as females do not owe anyone coversation if we don’t want to converse. Not even socially inept males. Here’s **[an account](http://unwinona.tumblr.com/post/30861660109/i-debated-whether-or-not-to-share-this-story)** of another example of that type of behavior, that goes further/is more extreme. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rudeness-ever-appropriate/643721/47 "2012-12-12T09:57:04Z")
It seems like we have a no true scottsman fallacy at work here (or perhaps begging the question). Anytime someone produces some conceivably rude behavior, people keep saying that “well that behavior isn’t REALLY rude under the circumstances because…” In other words, it sounds like people are defining rude to be behavior that is always inappropriate, or constantly are moving the goalposts for what constitutes inappropriate behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rudeness-ever-appropriate/643721/48 "2012-12-12T10:10:06Z")
> [@OleOneEye](#): > > Here’s an example. I was on a bus one time and a guy sat next to me. I had my headphones on, so he tried chatting with the girl facing us. That petered out, so he turned his attentions to me. But I had my headphones on. He kept turning sideways and sticking his face in mine to try to make eye contact but I kept staring straight ahead. When he got off the bus he was shouting about how women don’t want to make conversation. He seemed really angry. Sounds like you dodged a bullet. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rudeness-ever-appropriate/643721/49 "2012-12-12T11:07:28Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > It seems like we have a no true scottsman fallacy at work here (or perhaps begging the question). Anytime someone produces some conceivably rude behavior, people keep saying that “well that behavior isn’t REALLY rude under the circumstances because…” > > In other words, it sounds like people are defining rude to be behavior that is always inappropriate, or constantly are moving the goalposts for what constitutes inappropriate behavior. No; it’s just that rude is a term that depends on context and means something like being _unnecessarily_ blunt with someone. That’s the goalpost and it hasn’t moved. It’s like asking “Is it ever appropriate to make a curry that is _too spicy_? What about if all of your guests enjoy very spicy curries?”. Then it’s not “too spicy” then. That’s not true scotsman. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rudeness-ever-appropriate/643721/50 "2012-12-12T11:39:16Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > No; it’s just that rude is a term that depends on context and means something like being _unnecessarily_ blunt with someone. That’s the goalpost and it hasn’t moved. > > It’s like asking “Is it ever appropriate to make a curry that is _too spicy_? What about if all of your guests enjoy very spicy curries?”. Then it’s not “too spicy” then. That’s not true scotsman. Ok… so if you define rude as being unnecessarily blunt, then you have just begged the question and the poll is meaningless. Unnecessarily blunt implies inappropriate. ---
**Author:** ![bahimes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@bahimes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bahimes)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rudeness-ever-appropriate/643721/51 "2012-12-12T11:52:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > One can be cold, aloof and disapproving without crossing over the line into actual rudeness. Unless you encounter Jehovah’s Witnesses. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rudeness-ever-appropriate/643721/52 "2012-12-12T12:13:07Z")
> [@OleOneEye](#): > > Here’s an example. I was on a bus one time and a guy sat next to me. I had my headphones on, I often wear over-the-ear headphones with the wire stuck into my pocket as a cue that I do not wish to interact with others. Sometimes I’m listening to a podcast, other times I don’t even have my iPod with me. IMO someone interrupting my solitude is being _extremely_ rude. Fuck 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rudeness-ever-appropriate/643721/53 "2012-12-12T13:30:42Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Ok… so if you define rude as being unnecessarily blunt, then you have just begged the question and the poll is meaningless. Unnecessarily blunt implies inappropriate. Yes, I think the poll is meaningless. But it is not begging any question. There is nothing illogical or “true scotsman” about having a term in English that implies among other things an inappropriate action. But, looking at the poll results, only a minority of people have voted that rudeness is always inappropriate. I can think of two interpretations for this: One is that people have assumed that the OP means something like being terse, forceful, so that the answer to the question is non-trivial. The other is that maybe this is one of those things that’s different between British and American English. Over here no-one would ever say something like “I had to be rude to that guy, because he threw my stuff on the ground” or indeed just “I had to be rude to that guy”. By definition it’s always inappropriate. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rudeness-ever-appropriate/643721/54 "2012-12-12T13:54:24Z")
In all honesty, to answer the question myself, I think rudeness is fine in a few examples: - For comedic effect. Sometimes saying something or doing something rudely can be funny and memorable, and not taken in a bad way. For example, a guy who keeps farting on the bus to make everyone groan and cover their mouths with their shirts, but everybody is kind of laughing about it even though they think the fart smells genuinely gross. - To be remembered as an asshole for some reason. It’s appropriate to be rude if your goal is to make people dislike you, not want to be around you, etc. My best friend’s mom is constantly rude to people, waiters, etc, because she thinks being perceived as friendly is a weakness, she doesn’t like making conversation, she doesn’t want people to like her or know anything about her, etc. - To lessen the appearance of someone else’s rudeness. Say you have a dear family member who is being rude themselves. In order to diffuse the situation, you can be even more rude yourself, either to that family member or to others, in order to deflect attention away from the one you love. ---
**Author:** ![Seanette](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/seanette/32/9139_2.png) [@Seanette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seanette)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rudeness-ever-appropriate/643721/55 "2012-12-12T14:06:32Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Standing Room only on a very crowded bus, and the guy standing next to me grabs my ass. Was I rude? Well, if screaming “What the Fuck are you doing grabbing my ass?” on a crowded bus is rude, yes, I was. And I considered it entirely appropriate, and much better than “Excuse me, but would you please remove your hand from my posterior?” Too bad the situation didn’t permit a swift shot to his groin. I’ve had to deal with some people who just will not register that I won’t do what they want me to unless I get “rude”, which to them means I’m either ignoring them or have simply matter-of-factly stated refusal to comply with their wants. ---
**Author:** ![Seanette](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/seanette/32/9139_2.png) [@Seanette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seanette)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rudeness-ever-appropriate/643721/56 "2012-12-12T14:10:48Z")
> [@OleOneEye](#): > > On the surface, it looks that way. But is it really so different? > > Here’s an example. I was on a bus one time and a guy sat next to me. I had my headphones on, so he tried chatting with the girl facing us. That petered out, so he turned his attentions to me. But I had my headphones on. He kept turning sideways and sticking his face in mine to try to make eye contact but I kept staring straight ahead. When he got off the bus he was shouting about how women don’t want to make conversation. He seemed really angry. > > He must have been really hurting in his personal life to get that upset about being ignored by a stranger. By not tending to his hurts, I was doing the equivalent of not calling 911 for someone bleeding on the sidewalk. > > I try to rationalize my rude behavior toward him by reminding myself that his behavior was … unexpected. But do two wrongs make a right? You can’t be responsible for everyone. His “hurts” (which to me should read “sense of entitlement” in this case) are HIS problem to deal with. I’ll join in on the “it’s OK to prioritize yourself and your needs” chorus. You need to have some left in the tank for you, household members, and others you have a REAL relationship with who need you. ---
**Author:** ![FlyByNight512](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/82dd89/32.png) [@FlyByNight512](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyByNight512)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rudeness-ever-appropriate/643721/57 "2012-12-12T18:50:09Z")
> [@OleOneEye](#): > > He must have been really hurting in his personal life to get that upset about being ignored by a stranger. By not tending to his hurts, I was doing the equivalent of not calling 911 for someone bleeding on the sidewalk. Emotional pain is NOT equivalent to serious physical injury! One needs help NOW, the other is better resolved by talking to a professional. Not by unloading his shit on a stranger. ---
**Author:** ![thenonepercent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@thenonepercent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thenonepercent)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rudeness-ever-appropriate/643721/58 "2012-12-12T22:09:34Z")
OleOneEye: You sound like a doormat. I can only imagine the sorts of predatory partners you attract. I bet you get taken advantage a lot. Does your martyr complex manifest in other ways? ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rudeness-ever-appropriate/643721/59 "2012-12-12T22:13:13Z")
> [@OleOneEye](#): > > On the surface, it looks that way. But is it really so different? > > Here’s an example. I was on a bus one time and a guy sat next to me. I had my headphones on, so he tried chatting with the girl facing us. That petered out, so he turned his attentions to me. But I had my headphones on. He kept turning sideways and sticking his face in mine to try to make eye contact but I kept staring straight ahead. When he got off the bus he was shouting about how women don’t want to make conversation. He seemed really angry. > > He must have been really hurting in his personal life to get that upset about being ignored by a stranger. By not tending to his hurts, I was doing the equivalent of not calling 911 for someone bleeding on the sidewalk. > > I try to rationalize my rude behavior toward him by reminding myself that his behavior was … unexpected. But do two wrongs make a right? WTF. I have no idea where to even begin. This guy was giving you all the classic signs of being potentially violent, an abuser, having severe anger management issues, and being an entitled control freak. And you decided that YOU were the one at fault. I can’t even. Genuine suggestion: read _The gift of Fear._ Do it now. If this is the attitude with which you approach the world, I fear for you, I honestly do. Also, therapy to work out why you’re feeling the need to blame yourself for other people’s seriously bad behavior. Fixing strangers _is not your job._ And if that’s not convincing to you, how about the fact that you’re not qualified to do it? ---
**Author:** ![thenonepercent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@thenonepercent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thenonepercent)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rudeness-ever-appropriate/643721/60 "2012-12-12T22:13:49Z")
Standing up for yourself with people who want to take advantage of you is not rudeness. It’s self-preservation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rudeness-ever-appropriate/643721.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rudeness-ever-appropriate/643721.md?page=4)