# Is Russia A Threat...What Is Our Diplomatic State With Them? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2008, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-a-threat-what-is-our-diplomatic-state-with-them/456097 "2008-07-11T05:44:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-a-threat-what-is-our-diplomatic-state-with-them/456097/21 "2008-07-12T23:44:18Z")
Moskali never change. Yes, they are the enemy. Putin is KGB and still in charge. You think because they changed the CCCP paint job that they are actually different? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2008, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-a-threat-what-is-our-diplomatic-state-with-them/456097/22 "2008-07-13T00:11:45Z")
[QUOTE=Scumpup] Moskali never change. Yes, they are the enemy. Putin is KGB and still in charge. You think because they changed the CCCP paint job that they are actually different? [/QUOTE] They drive nicer cars and drink better champagne, now. That sickeningly sweet Georgian “champagne” was just nasty. One can see why they threw off the yolk of Marxism so rapidly once Western goods became accessible. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Cornelius\_Tuggerson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Cornelius\_Tuggerson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cornelius_Tuggerson)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-a-threat-what-is-our-diplomatic-state-with-them/456097/23 "2008-07-14T18:55:05Z")
[QUOTE=Scumpup] **Moskali** never change. [/QUOTE] Well if we are gonna resort to name calling there are any number of things I could call Ukraine and its citizens - a poorer more pathetic version of Mexico and Mexicans for example. Your country is a small appendix at the very end of the book that is Russian history, and trust me, no one ever reads it. How did joining NATO work out for you? Are the gas prices to your liking? Russia simply wants to have as much say in affairs of states surrounding it as the US has in the affairs of Canada and Mexico, yet it is subjected to a double standard. If Mexico started acting the way Venezuela is acting right now what do you think the US would do? And thats exactly how Ukraine/Georgia etc.. are acting. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-a-threat-what-is-our-diplomatic-state-with-them/456097/24 "2008-07-14T19:36:17Z")
[QUOTE=Scumpup] Moskali never change. Yes, they are the enemy. Putin is KGB and still in charge. You think because they changed the CCCP paint job that they are actually different? [/QUOTE] Kindasorta. Russia is no longer a revolutionary-ideological, expansionist, totalitarian state. It is now more like Mexico under the PRI from 1929 to 2001 – a corrupt, authoritarian, one-party state with a predominantly free market, at least some respect for human rights, and at least some room for other parties to compete so long as they don’t seriously threaten the ruling party’s grip on supreme power. (Putin’s main opposition, BTW, comes from the [Communist Party.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_the_Russian_Federation) I suppose the CIA should be channelling them funds? 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-a-threat-what-is-our-diplomatic-state-with-them/456097/25 "2008-07-14T21:02:28Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] Anybody. Threats are always emerging. Russia yesterday, Iran today, who knows tommorow? [/QUOTE] But, Iran is not a threat. Not to the U.S., not to Europe, not even much of a threat to Israel. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-a-threat-what-is-our-diplomatic-state-with-them/456097/26 "2008-07-14T21:06:39Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] But, **Iran is not a threat**. Not to the U.S., not to Europe, not even much of a threat to Israel. [/QUOTE] Really? Then why all the international hand-wringing over their nuclear program? And in the midst of their nuclear ambitions, they make threats against Israel, not to mention their continued military and logistical support for Hezbollah, which actually attacks Israel in real life with regularity? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-a-threat-what-is-our-diplomatic-state-with-them/456097/27 "2008-07-14T21:32:56Z")
[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil] Really? Then why all the international hand-wringing over their nuclear program? [/quote] Why indeed? [QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil] And in the midst of their nuclear ambitions, they make threats against Israel, not to mention their continued military and logistical support for Hezbollah, which actually attacks Israel in real life with regularity? [/QUOTE] Still, they’re not **much** of a threat to Israel. They do not seriously threaten Israel’s existence, no more than al-Qaeda seriously threatens America’s existence. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-a-threat-what-is-our-diplomatic-state-with-them/456097/28 "2008-07-14T21:58:04Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] But defensive against whom, now? [/QUOTE] BG It really is an organization dedicated to protecting a bunch of European countries as well as Canada and the US from the reds back in 49 when the big bad bear might have decided to make a grab for all Europe. It was also an organization dedicated to protecting France and England from Germany , if they decided to ever try for a third time. It was also an organization dedicated to putting the thumb on Germany , to remind em that they lost the war and the folks in various bases that spoke english and Quebec and Parisian french were occupation troops , but with a nicer name. Now time has marched on and its fifty or so years later. The bottom line is Russia has not been relevant for close to 20 years now. The current crop of leaders over there stand in the shadow of the old boys , Brezhnev and company would not have tolerated any kind of encroachment on their buffer zone, the warsaw pact. Which was envisioned so that the Rodina would not suffer something like 50 million known casualties just in WW2, and god knows what , when you add WW1 and the civil war that almost all of Europe supported in some fashion or another. So , the time is right and we can grab enough of Europe thats left over to increase our (western Europe) buffer zone in case either the Russians ever decide to rebuild their military (cant see it happening , but thats the future) or Russia itself gets overrun by China (more likely). And as an added bonus , we can get the various Euros to do stuff around the world that they could probably not do by themselves ,all under a more politically palatable banner and not as a minion of the USA. Who is a threat and who do we defend against is a matter of the current Ouiji threat board, or more specifically we choose when and were we defend, and if we are defending on their thirty yard line , cool. Declan Edit WW2 I meant ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-a-threat-what-is-our-diplomatic-state-with-them/456097/29 "2008-07-14T22:26:12Z")
[QUOTE=Declan] So , the time is right and we can grab enough of Europe thats left over to increase our (western Europe) buffer zone in case either the Russians ever decide to rebuild their military (cant see it happening , but thats the future) or Russia itself gets overrun by China (more likely). [/QUOTE] There’s essentially zero chance of China overrunning them. Russia has nukes, and people don’t try to conquer nuclear armed countries. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-a-threat-what-is-our-diplomatic-state-with-them/456097/30 "2008-07-14T22:49:57Z")
[QUOTE=Declan] And as an added bonus , we can get the various Euros to do stuff around the world that they could probably not do by themselves ,all under a more politically palatable banner and **not as a minion of the USA.** [/quote] **Nobody** actually buys that, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-a-threat-what-is-our-diplomatic-state-with-them/456097/31 "2008-07-14T22:50:20Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] There’s essentially zero chance of China overrunning them. Russia has nukes, and people don’t try to conquer nuclear armed countries. [/QUOTE] So far for fifty years thats been correct, its the future thats always in doubt. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-a-threat-what-is-our-diplomatic-state-with-them/456097/32 "2008-07-14T22:52:25Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] **Nobody** actually buys that, you know. [/QUOTE] Who said that they have to buy it, you think that the Euro countries in Afganistan actually believe that they are protecting their freedoms , or that Serbia was really all that bad. It just provides the fig leaf Declan ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-a-threat-what-is-our-diplomatic-state-with-them/456097/33 "2008-07-14T23:10:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Well if we are gonna resort to name calling there are any number of things I could call Ukraine and its citizens Hmmph. Pretty brave words from the people who feared Stepan Bandera enough to murder him…and who fear him still. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2008, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-a-threat-what-is-our-diplomatic-state-with-them/456097/34 "2008-07-15T00:24:13Z")
[QUOTE=Declan] So far for fifty years thats been correct, its the future thats always in doubt. [/QUOTE] It’s not in doubt when the potential invader isn’t run by raving lunatics, and China isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2008, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-a-threat-what-is-our-diplomatic-state-with-them/456097/35 "2008-07-15T13:53:12Z")
[QUOTE=Declan] Who said that they have to buy it, you think that the Euro countries in Afganistan actually believe that they are protecting their freedoms , or that Serbia was really all that bad. It just provides the fig leaf [/QUOTE] :dubious: The U.S. didn’t have any interest in the entire messy Serbian conflicts of recent years. It was Europe who was spooked about the broken plumbing and wanted us to fix it. I recall that a very large part of Americans didn’t care to bother. I still don’t think we should have done anything. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2008, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-a-threat-what-is-our-diplomatic-state-with-them/456097/36 "2008-07-15T23:26:06Z")
I see the world evolving so as to make Russia a power again-not a superpower, but a regional power. Russia is rich in raw materials, and will eventually become a propsperous nation. So why annoy them? What is the upside for us in extending NATO? This justs makes us more liable, and costs us more money. NATO is an artifact of the post WWII era-and enough is enough! I find it strange that the US is protecting countries like Germany, which has plenty of money. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-a-threat-what-is-our-diplomatic-state-with-them/456097/37 "2008-07-16T01:28:25Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] It’s not in doubt when the potential invader isn’t run by raving lunatics, and China isn’t. [/QUOTE] Don’t forget, China is also armed with nuclear weapons, which makes the idea of a foreign misadventure more likely. I could see Russia and China getting into proxy wars in the mess that is currently imbroiled in the Chechen conflict, round 2. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-a-threat-what-is-our-diplomatic-state-with-them/456097/38 "2008-07-16T13:36:20Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] :dubious: The U.S. didn’t have any interest in the entire messy Serbian conflicts of recent years. It was Europe who was spooked about the broken plumbing and wanted us to fix it. I recall that a very large part of Americans didn’t care to bother. I still don’t think we should have done anything. [/QUOTE] Nevertheless, the Yugoslavian intervention was the most entirely **admirable** thing the U.S. military has done since WWII. More so, even, than Korea or the first Gulf War. No benefit to us, no strategic or material interests of ours directly at stake, no threat to the U.S. perceived; yet we went in for substantially humanitarian reasons and, with limited and judicious application of force, substantially solved the problems we set out to solve without getting into any quagmire or establishing a permanent military presence or getting sweetheart deals for American corporations; and practically no lingering resentment against us in the region for throwing our weight around in a good cause. I was never prouder of Bill Clinton than when he promised the displaced Albanian Kosovars, “You will go home, safe and free,” and delivered on the promise. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-a-threat-what-is-our-diplomatic-state-with-them/456097/39 "2008-07-16T16:50:26Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Nevertheless, the Yugoslavian intervention was the most entirely **admirable** thing the U.S. military has done since WWII. More so, even, than Korea or the first Gulf War. [/QUOTE] I have no problem with the motives behinds it. I have problems with the execution, and the attitude of the Euro-nations. Well, the western Europ-nations. They practically begged us to save their bacon (and the actions they took beforehand were appaling in their ignorance, idiocy, and cowardice). We did so, essentially for no gain to us. I generally favored, as a lot of Republicans did, a major ground force being deployed if we were going to deployed at all. I think desploying and leaving so quickly was a mistake. Likewise, leaving Milosovec in the hands of Europe turned into a ridiculous farce. That said, I was impressed by how quickly the missile barrage forced Milosovec out. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-a-threat-what-is-our-diplomatic-state-with-them/456097/40 "2008-07-16T17:12:33Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Nevertheless, the Yugoslavian intervention was the most entirely **admirable** thing the U.S. military has done since WWII. More so, even, than Korea or the first Gulf War. No benefit to us, no strategic or material interests of ours directly at stake, no threat to the U.S. perceived; yet we went in for substantially humanitarian reasons and, with limited and judicious application of force, substantially solved the problems we set out to solve without getting into any quagmire or establishing a permanent military presence or getting sweetheart deals for American corporations; and practically no lingering resentment against us in the region for throwing our weight around in a good cause. I was never prouder of Bill Clinton than when he promised the displaced Albanian Kosovars, “You will go home, safe and free,” and delivered on the promise. [/QUOTE] And a LOT of those Albanian Muslims were there in Afghanistan, killing American soldiers with weapons supplied by NATO. We actually helped the jihadists by crushing the Serbs (who were our allies in two world wars)! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-a-threat-what-is-our-diplomatic-state-with-them/456097.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-a-threat-what-is-our-diplomatic-state-with-them/456097.md?page=3)