# Is Russia determined to be an empire again? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2008, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370 "2008-08-09T02:18:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2008, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/1 "2008-08-09T02:18:03Z")
Russia has invaded Georgia, in order to protect South Ossetia - a part of Georgia - from Georgian agression. I’ve wondered, ever since the Soviet Union broke up into the CIS, how long it would take Russia - a nation with an imperialistic history, both under the Tsars and the General Secretaries, rivalling only England - to start up again. I guess now I know. ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2008, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/2 "2008-08-09T02:48:25Z")
It’s very, very early to start saying that Russia wants an Empire. There are several factors at play here, not least of which is the US missiles being placed in Eastern Europe, which mean that Russia needs to flex its muscles. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2008, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/3 "2008-08-09T03:24:49Z")
That’s interesting and all but is the lovechild really Brett Favre’s? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2008, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/4 "2008-08-09T03:27:26Z")
[http://debka.com/article.php?aid=1358](http://debka.com/article.php?aid=1358) > [@](#): > > Georgian tanks and infantry, aided by Israeli military advisers, captured the capital of breakaway South Ossetia, Tskhinvali, early Friday, Aug. 8, bringing the Georgian-Russian conflict over the province to a military climax. > > Russian prime minister Vladimir Putin threatened a “military response.” > > Former Soviet Georgia called up its military reserves after Russian warplanes bombed its new positions in the renegade province. > > In Moscow’s first response to the fall of Tskhinvali, president Dimitry Medvedev ordered the Russian army to prepare for a national emergency after calling the UN Security Council into emergency session early Friday. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2008, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/5 "2008-08-09T03:31:28Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > That’s interesting and all but is the lovechild really Brett Favre’s? [QUOTE=mswas] [http://debka.com/article.php?aid=1358](http://debka.com/article.php?aid=1358) [/QUOTE] :dubious: Too much to ask for actual thoughts from you, eh? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2008, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/6 "2008-08-09T03:47:03Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] :dubious: Too much to ask for actual thoughts from you, eh? [/QUOTE] I posted a link from an Israeli news source talking about Israeli contractors and you don’t think that’s relevant to the topic? My opinion is more important than actual news on the topic? Wow. Then, yes, I think Russia is working to annex Ossetia. I’ve heard that they are printing up citizenship papers for the citizens of Ossetia as we speak. Supposedly, (repeating someone else’s opinion) the Russians are concerned about the Kosovo secession and therefore are trying to make seceding provinces work in their favor rather than against them. There are many provinces that could break away from Russia, and there is barely cohesion in many former soviet states. Also, as per the article I pasted, Russia would have a greater control of the pipeline that goes through Ossetia. > [@](#): > > DEBKAfile’s geopolitical experts note that on the surface level, the Russians are backing the separatists of S. Ossetia and neighboring Abkhazia as payback for the strengthening of American influence in tiny Georgia and its 4.5 million inhabitants. However, more immediately, the conflict has been sparked by the race for control over the pipelines carrying oil and gas out of the Caspian region. That’s from the article I linked. I’m sorry that I offended you by providing an article with more depth rather than a pithy two-line response stating my inexpert opinion. But since I need to have an opinion, I think Russia is trying to control the oil pipelines so that Israel cannot circumvent it completely by going through Turkey, just like it says in the article that I posted that obviously in no way reflected my opinion on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2008, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/7 "2008-08-09T03:51:03Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] I’m sorry that I offended you by providing an article with more depth rather than a pithy two-line response stating my inexpert opinion. [/QUOTE] The article was, in fact, whether factual or not, rather more relevant than your post about Brett Favre. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2008, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/8 "2008-08-09T03:53:08Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] The article was, in fact, whether factual or not, rather more relevant than your post about Brett Favre. [/QUOTE] I can’t help that you have no sense of humor. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2008, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/9 "2008-08-09T03:59:30Z")
Yes, you can! Humor impairment is one of the ten warning signs of the onset of Cognitive Dissonance! The Mother’s March Against CD is now accepting…hey! quit shoving! Stop that, thats totally uncool!..donations for our annual…hey, knock it off!.. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2008, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/10 "2008-08-09T04:00:49Z")
Oddly enough, the thread in MPSIMS is more sensible than this one. Go figure. Mods, please close. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2008, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/11 "2008-08-09T04:25:07Z")
The South Ossetians are ethnically related to the North Ossetians (go figure), which province remains part of Russia. As is usual when the lines for “nations” are drawn without regard to what really makes a “nation” a nation, the borders of Georgia are hardly in close correspondence to the geographic area which is really part of what could be considered a “nation” of Georgia. Which isn’t to say that Russian efforts to meddle in the affairs of the Ossetians and the Abkhazians aren’t motivated by a desire to have the equivalent of an “empire” in the area. But one can hardly blame Russia for intervening when the Ossetians themselves view themselves more “Russian” than “Georgian.” :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2008, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/12 "2008-08-09T04:51:53Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] But one can hardly blame Russia for intervening when the Ossetians themselves view themselves more “Russian” than “Georgian.” :dubious: [/QUOTE] Would you support the Mexican Government if it decided to annex large portions of South Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California? There’s a lot of folks there who are ethnically Hispanic, speak Spanish and who don’t self identify as American. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2008, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/13 "2008-08-09T05:04:32Z")
[QUOTE=Tapioca Dextrin] Would you support the Mexican Government if it decided to annex large portions of South Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California? There’s a lot of folks there who are ethnically Hispanic, speak Spanish and who don’t self identify as American. [/QUOTE] The attempted analogy is imprecise and poorly chosen. South Ossetia is not part of Georgia by any reason other than Georgia’s own self-proclamation that it should be, and the decision of bureaucrats elsewhere lumping it in with the Georgian SSR way back when. South Ossetia is not ethnically majority Georgian, with a minority that views itself as Russian; rather, the opposite is true. And, in 1992, they won de facto freedom from Georgia, which apparently attempted to use the distraction of the Olympics to attempt a forcible re-unification of the province. They are getting exactly what they should have expected as a result. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2008, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/14 "2008-08-09T05:33:42Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] South Ossetia is not part of Georgia by any reason other than Georgia’s own self-proclamation that it should be, and the decision of bureaucrats elsewhere lumping it in with the Georgian SSR way back when. [/quote] Well, actually South Ossetia has often been a component part of Georgia since the Middle Ages. When Georgia was annexed in 1801, South Ossetia came with it. The differentiation of South from North Ossetia is to some extent down to Russia having acquired the latter a few decades earlier by treaty with the Ottomans and incorporating it seperately. Similarly with Karbarda, which had been under loose Georgian suzerainty, but was also incorporated into Russia in 1774 ( where it too remains ). > [@](#): > > South Ossetia is not ethnically majority Georgian, with a minority that views itself as Russian; rather, the opposite is true. I know what you meant to say, but just to clarify, a majority desire to be part of Russia ( united with North Ossetia ), but I don’t believe they generally view themselves as Russian in any ethnic sense. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2008, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/15 "2008-08-09T06:19:31Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Russia has invaded Georgia, in order to protect South Ossetia - a part of Georgia - from Georgian agression. [/QUOTE] This is very spooky. A videogame I designed, [Tom Clancy’s Ghost Recon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Clancy%27s_Ghost_Recon_%28video_game%29), begins with a Russian invasion of South Ossetia in 2008. I wrote the storyline back in 2001. In the game the Russians follow up their attack on Georgia with an invasion of the Baltic. Now might not be a good time to travel to Vilnius … . ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2008, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/16 "2008-08-09T08:10:59Z")
[QUOTE=Pochacco] This is very spooky. A videogame I designed, [Tom Clancy’s Ghost Recon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Clancy%27s_Ghost_Recon_%28video_game%29), begins with a Russian invasion of South Ossetia in 2008. I wrote the storyline back in 2001. In the game the Russians follow up their attack on Georgia with an invasion of the Baltic. Now might not be a good time to travel to Vilnius … . [/QUOTE] Someone else mentioned that too. You wrote that game? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2008, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/17 "2008-08-09T14:37:12Z")
[QUOTE=Tamerlane] I know what you meant to say, but just to clarify, a majority desire to be part of Russia ( united with North Ossetia ), but I don’t believe they generally view themselves as Russian in any ethnic sense. [/QUOTE] Yes, a good clarification. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2008, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/18 "2008-08-09T15:22:25Z")
If anyone else is like me, and has been very ignorant about the status of South Ossetia before this actually reached this point, [BBC](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7549736.stm) has a good synopsis of the basics. So if I have it right: a region that has long been controlled by various others, has been able to function as if they were independent even though they were officially part of Georgia, majority are an ethnic group separate from Georgians or Russians, a third are ethnic Georgians, many have taken on Russian passports and Russia says that gives them the obligation to protect them, Georgia wanted to bring them under tighter control as Russia was encouraging the separatists and Russia sees this as a chance to flex their regional muscle. Right? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2008, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/19 "2008-08-09T15:34:30Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Someone else mentioned that too. You wrote that game? [/QUOTE] Designed it. A team of programmers wrote the actual code. But I came up with the “Russia invades Georgia to liberate South Ossetia” storyline. Looks like my research was pretty good! ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2008, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/20 "2008-08-09T15:56:51Z")
Last night on the Jim Lehrer News Hour, both analysts said that they felt this move by Russia was intended to disrupt Georgia in order to prevent said nation from successfully making political and/or economic deals with western nations. I found that notion quite terrifying. Combined with the impression I get that Russia these days is little more than a “Mafia” run state, things don’t look too good for Boris, Natasha, or the rest of the world. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370.md?page=2)