# Is Russia determined to be an empire again? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2008, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370 "2008-08-09T02:18:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/181 "2008-08-12T16:39:56Z")
Get your news right here: [**Russia marks its red lines**](http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/JH13Ag05.html) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/182 "2008-08-12T16:44:05Z")
From Sam’s link: > [@](#): > > For almost two decades Russia has sought to divide and destabilize the new independent states in its former backyard by helping to establish, finance, and protect “breakaway” ethnic statelets such as South Ossetia and Abkhazia within the sovereign territory of Georgia. I’m curious about all these other breakaway statelets that Moscow has been creating. I’d be more inclined to see a pattern if given some for-instances in other former SSRs. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/183 "2008-08-12T17:04:23Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] Well, good of you to finally recognize, in the eighth and final year of the Bush Administration, what a bunch of fuckups you’ve been supporting all these years. (Note to **Magiver** : that’s the point. And I can’t think of a better time for making it.) [/QUOTE] That’s a rant. Your posts suggest you think the United States/NATO is supposed to engage Russia in a war bordering their country. That’s insane, no politician is suggesting this course of action. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/184 "2008-08-12T17:09:16Z")
Russia is now attacking BP pipelines in Tbilisi: [http://www.nysun.com/foreign/russia-jets-bomb-georgia-oil-pipeline/83547/](http://www.nysun.com/foreign/russia-jets-bomb-georgia-oil-pipeline/83547/) ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/185 "2008-08-12T17:34:45Z")
[QUOTE=ladyfoxfyre] Russia is now attacking BP pipelines in Tbilisi: [http://www.nysun.com/foreign/russia-jets-bomb-georgia-oil-pipeline/83547/](http://www.nysun.com/foreign/russia-jets-bomb-georgia-oil-pipeline/83547/) [/QUOTE] Yesterday’s news – which turned out to be rather alarmist than true. Might want to read your own cites prior to posting them. Just sayin’ ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/186 "2008-08-12T17:39:35Z")
Perhaps I should have said “targeted” pipelines, which remains true, whether it be for tactical or symbolic purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/187 "2008-08-12T17:40:11Z")
I swear, I’m beginning to understand the right wingers of the '60s and '70s. Georgia has been for two or three days saying “OK, OK, stopping hitting us and we’ll talk!” and Russia is going on beating the crap out of them, and you guys and the Asian Times are so busy blaming the US that you can’t take a moment to say that yes, Russia might want to stop killing Georgian civilians for a while, or perhaps that Europe might want to at least consider trying to do something to make it more likely? I’m sorry, but what is _wrong_ with you? I hate Bush as much as anyone here, but this is a terrible thing that transcends Bush! It’s a hideously dangerous thing, and the wrong choices here could lead to devastation. On the one hand, we want to avoid precipitating WWIII. On the other hand, we also want to avoid being Neville Chamberlain. Each is a valid argument, and basing a viewpoint on the fact that Bush is a royal asshole is stupid. This isn’t about Bush. This is about what we can do and what Europe can do and what Russia can do and wants to do and will do under what circumstances. Bush is an irrelevancy here, and Bush’s foreign policy is Abraham Lincoln - it’s history. All it matters it that it set the stage for where we are right now. We can figure out who to blame later. Oh, hell, we all know who to blame anyway. What we need to do is figure out what to do or not do NOW. ETA: Cleaned up spelling. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/188 "2008-08-12T17:56:58Z")
You start a war you don’t get to call when it ends. And , btw, you don’t seen to want to understand that they (Georgians) killed quite a number of South Ossetians [Humanitarian impact South Ossetia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_war#Combatant_statements) Georgia and their nutbar of a President, Saak, were mighty fortunate that diplomatic pressure (only thing available) ultimately stopped The Bear half-track. But hey, go ahead, become a Right Winger over this. :::shrug::: ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/189 "2008-08-12T17:57:41Z")
**Oy!** The reality of the matter is that you’re operating under a model that assumes something about the 21st century that simply isn’t true. Russia is working under a completely realpolitik model. Your assumptions of right and wrong barely apply here. This isn’t a matter of a poor innocent little country getting picked on. This is a matter of a President who wanted to bring greater glory to his small little country that happens to be a major crossroads of history. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/190 "2008-08-12T18:10:04Z")
We’ve established the EU can do _nothing_ to stop this, short-term. Is this good or bad? ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/191 "2008-08-12T18:13:23Z")
[QUOTE=Oy!] Oh, hell, we all know who to blame anyway. What we need to do is figure out what to do or not do NOW. [/QUOTE] I don’t think there’s a consensus on who is to blame, really. The Georgians have played a dangerous game by continuing to attack S Ossetia knowing that Russian troops were there, and playing into Russia’s desire to have a reason to bombard Georgia. That was stupid. Georgia also counted on Western forces stopping Russia when they continued to attack Georgia. Also stupid. Russia shouldn’t have continued bombing Tbilisi once it was irrelevant to continued attacks on S Ossetia. And for sure the idea that the Russian retaliation in the name of protecting Russian citizens is bullshit, and everyone knows it. There is a obvious danger in allowing Russia to run roughshod over its neighbors like it wants to do. But the answer about what to do here is far from clear. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/192 "2008-08-12T18:17:16Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] That’s a rant. Your posts suggest you think the United States/NATO is supposed to engage Russia in a war bordering their country. That’s insane, no politician is suggesting this course of action. [/QUOTE] So everyone’s agreed that we should NOT bring Georgia into NATO? Or are those that advocate bringing Georgia into NATO saying that it would just be on paper; we wouldn’t actually defend Georgia if attacked by Russia? The only remaining alternative is that politicians are saying that if Russia messes with Georgia any more, we’d go to war with them. So, which is it? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/193 "2008-08-12T18:20:50Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] From Sam’s link: I’m curious about all these other breakaway statelets that Moscow has been creating. I’d be more inclined to see a pattern if given some for-instances in other former SSRs. [/QUOTE] Outside of Georgia? Nagorno-Karabakh and Nakhchivan in Azerbaijan, Transnistria in Moldova. Russia also pushed for autonomy and self government for Crimea in Ukraine ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/194 "2008-08-12T18:21:25Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] So everyone’s agreed that we should NOT bring Georgia into NATO? Or are those that advocate bringing Georgia into NATO saying that it would just be on paper; we wouldn’t actually defend Georgia if attacked by Russia? The only remaining alternative is that politicians are saying that if Russia messes with Georgia any more, we’d go to war with them. So, which is it? [/QUOTE] Don’t bring Georgia into NATO. We can’t have a member of NATO who thinks it can be belligerent and be backed up when it’s belligerence backfires. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/195 "2008-08-12T18:22:00Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] We’ve established the EU can do _nothing_ to stop this, short-term. [/quote] Short of going nuclear NO ONE has the power to invade Russia and dictate terms to them. The so-called “Unipolar World” was short-lived. Russia’s petrodollars and America’s squandering of their good fortunes have brought us closer to the days of the Cold War. > [@](#): > > Is this good or bad? On a personal note, I prefer it to a Unipolar world…especially as it was being run. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/196 "2008-08-12T18:24:33Z")
But do we have any indications that Russia has actually stopped? Because last I had heard (which admittedly, was last night), Russia had “agreed,” but nothing had actually changed in the field - in fact, if anything, fighting was increasing. And no, **Red Fury** , I’m not planning to become a Right Winger, O Carrier of Sordid Tsetse Feces. Bite thy tongue! I said I was beginning to understand them better, because it does seem like there is a segment of people who do seem very eager to blame the US for any and everything that goes wrong in the world. And while the US may very well be to some extent at fault here, I think it’s ridiculous not to hold Russia responsible for some of what it’s doing. **mswas** , you can talk all you want about Real Politick. You’re still talking about real human beings who are dying through absolutely no fault of their own. For them, whether in S. Ossetia or in Georgia, this is no different from, except that it’s probably quite a bit worse than, 9/11. At least on 9/11 their homes weren’t blown to bits, their schools and businesses(mostly), their communities weren’t destroyed, their countrysides weren’t wiped out. We lost fewer than 3000 people on 9/11 and it continued for a matter of a few hours. This has gone on for days, and while no one knows the death toll yet, I’d be very surprised if it were less than double 3000. So you can take your Real Politick and stick it on the talk shows. I know you need some degree of detachment to work with politics and diplomacy and the military, but you also need to always keep in mind that you’re playing with _real_ goddamned lives, not just toys. On both sides! ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/197 "2008-08-12T18:29:10Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] So everyone’s agreed that we should NOT bring Georgia into NATO? Or are those that advocate bringing Georgia into NATO saying that it would just be on paper; we wouldn’t actually defend Georgia if attacked by Russia? The only remaining alternative is that politicians are saying that if Russia messes with Georgia any more, we’d go to war with them. So, which is it? [/QUOTE] NATO wants stable countries so the civil war would have to be sorted out on something resembling a permanent solution. Russia may very well have attacked Georgia to stir the pot and forestall the event. It certainly appears as if this was planned in advance. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/198 "2008-08-12T18:40:10Z")
**Oy!** would that I had more time to respond to you but alas it is not to be ATM. Having said that, I don’t believe i’ve made mention of Bush at all in this thread…or if at all, I may have done so in passing. Because the fact of the matter is (again, I need to say this for emphasis) short of nuclear warfare, you WILL NOT stop Putin and Russia once they’ve decided to take a course of action. Now, where I _do_ blame American Foreign Policy (and this goes back before Bush) is in their constant push for the expansion of NATO. For see, while Yelsin was a drunken fool with little pride or money to do anything about it, the man that took over after him (Putin) is about as tough as GW thinks he is in his wildest dreams. And for quite some time Putin has been giving clear signs that he is fed-up with the bullshit “missile shield-defense” that is supposedly being built to protect Europe from those “loony theocrats in Iran.” Man’s not dumb, far from it…and seeing his country surrounded by missiles pointed, in essesnse AT THEM has to have made him more that a little worried…and mad. Thus what we just saw was figuratively and literally how swiftly he was ready to draw a red line in the sand. Now that he’s done so…your guess is as good as mine. But I’ll vote for diplomacy every time. Which is what I am hoping Obama brings in spades. Take care and thank Og for not having another Tighty Righty in the makings! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/199 "2008-08-12T19:05:45Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] **Oy!** would that I had more time to respond to you but alas it is not to be ATM.😉 [/QUOTE] Thank you so much for taking the time you have done thus far! [QUOTE=RedFury] Having said that, I don’t believe i’ve made mention of Bush at all in this thread…or if at all, I may have done so in passing. Because the fact of the matter is (again, I need to say this for emphasis) short of nuclear warfare, you WILL NOT stop Putin and Russia once they’ve decided to take a course of action. [/QUOTE] This is the big question mark, the 64,000 dollar question! _Will_ they stop at nothing? Or is this a big bad hairy scary wolf mask (with jet, tanks and guns enough for Georgia, of course)? The old USSR, there would have been no question. And you’re right; Putin is tough in a way that W would love to be; I always thought that’s why W loved him so - Putin was what W wanted to be when W grew up: a dictator. But even a dictator in Russia doesn’t have the power in Russia that the Party used to have in the USSR. We think. Maybe. Or not. Dammit, if I’m going to solve this problem, I need intelligence, and analysists! I want the CIA and the NSA and I want them pronto! Get SecState and SecDef in here! Ok, **Oy!** Step away from the keyboard… ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/200 "2008-08-12T19:08:21Z")
[QUOTE=Oy!] you can’t take a moment to say that yes, Russia might want to stop killing Georgian civilians for a while [/quote] Yes, Russia might want to stop killing Georgian civilians for a while. That and a buck-fifty will get you a small coffee (under some other name) at Starbucks’. And while we’re at it, murderers should stop murdering, and rapists should stop raping, and terrorists should stop terrorizing, and con men should stop defrauding, and yada yada yada. Bad people, _stop being bad!!_ … OK, sorry. Since I’ve been saying this across the decades, I get kinda bored with my own words, and need to spice up the presentation every once in awhile. But bad guys are bad. They do bad things. Condemning their evil is certainly worth doing, but doing so won’t cause the evildoers to see reason. Like it or not, you’ve got to work with your own choices, and the choices of the actors you can actually influence. During the Cold War, the question wasn’t “Is the USSR an evil empire?” but “What are we going to do about it?” > [@](#): > > or perhaps that Europe might want to at least consider trying to do something to make it more likely? Well, sure, but the point that many of us have been making is that there doesn’t seem to be much that Europe can do, period. > [@](#): > > I’m sorry, but what is _wrong_ with you? I hate Bush as much as anyone here, but this is a terrible thing that transcends Bush! No, not really. Does the Iraq war transcend Bush? No, and its toll of death and human misery is far beyond what this invasion will have brought, when the final toll is added up. > [@](#): > > On the one hand, we want to avoid precipitating WWIII. Maybe I’m blase about it because we’ve avoided precipitating WWIII across the decades in far more dangerous circumstances than this, but we have in fact avoided precipitating WWIII across the decades in far more dangerous circumstances than this. > [@](#): > > On the other hand, we also want to avoid being Neville Chamberlain. Russia’s hardly got some invincible army. From everything I’ve heard, it’s a couple of decades behind the U.S. in terms of its technology. There’s a limit to what it can do. It can swallow Georgia whole, but it can’t do the same to Ukraine, which has almost 1/3 the population of Russia. > [@](#): > > basing a viewpoint on the fact that Bush is a royal asshole is stupid. There’s a difference between pointing out that this reveals all the stupidity of Bush’s ‘strategic’ approach over the past 7 years, and basing one’s viewpoint of what to do on it. > [@](#): > > This isn’t about Bush. This is what you call a _teachable moment_. Russia’s Georgia excursion, and our total lack of options, and our cluelessness that it was even about to happen, are all due to the flaws of Bush’s approach to the world. So yeah, I’m gonna use this moment to make the point that this is why we’re in this pickle, why we didn’t see it coming, and why we have no options now that we’re here. Mostly Iraq, with a pretty good side helping of Bush bluster that he couldn’t back up, and missile defense for Eastern Europe for dessert. This is the moment to say to the hawks and neocons: no, you can’t do everything. You can’t beat up on everyone; you have to choose your wars wisely. As [Hilzoy at Obsidian Wings](http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2008/08/georgia-quick-t.html) eloquently summed it up: “you had one war available. You already used it up.” Since we can’t do anything about the present situation anyway, but we have this teachable moment, it’s classroom time. It’s time to make sure the lessons of this moment are spelled out. > [@](#): > > Bush is an irrelevancy here, and Bush’s foreign policy is Abraham Lincoln - it’s history. It’s _this week’s_ history. It’s _still happening_. Plus, one of our two Presidential finalists would pursue a foreign policy much like Bush’s - only more so. So there is a lesson for the future, besides ‘recognize your limitations.’ It’s **“If you don’t like what’s going on in Georgia right now, don’t elect McCain.”** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370.md?page=11)