# Is Russia determined to be an empire again? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2008, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370 "2008-08-09T02:18:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2008, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/241 "2008-08-13T16:53:49Z")
President Bush just announced he’s sending troops in to deliver aid. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2008, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/242 "2008-08-13T17:13:00Z")
Bush says it’s strictly [humanitarian aid](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/world/europe/14prexy.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin), but the Navy and Airforce are the ones carrying it in. I’m sure they’re the fastest means, but I can only hope that Bush is not stupid enough to be trying to pull a fast one. ETA: added link ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2008, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/243 "2008-08-13T17:28:49Z")
[QUOTE=Oy!] They deserved to be tossed out of S. Ossetia and they were. [/QUOTE] Did they? Why? They were being attacked by S. Ossetian paramilitaries. Doesn’t the Georgian government have the right to put down rebellion within its borders? ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2008, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/244 "2008-08-13T17:52:43Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] Did they? Why? They were being attacked by S. Ossetian paramilitaries. Doesn’t the Georgian government have the right to put down rebellion within its borders? [/QUOTE] Oh, god, **mswas** is a much better source for this than I am. If you go back to some of the articles she has referenced earlier in the thread, I think you’ll see what I’m talking about. But at base, S. Ossetia was a totally autonomous region (at least, wrt Georgia), with Russian troops permanently stationed there as so-called peacekeepers. Whether legally part of Georgia or not, only a third of its population self-identifies as Georgian. Yes, they were doing some provoking of their own. But Georgia went in with guns blazing, not only attacking S. Ossetia (and mostly civilian targets, because as I understand it, S. Ossetia doesn’t have much of a military of its own), but Russian troops. They did this figuring either they could sort of sneak it by Russia during the Olympics, or that NATO would bale them out if they got into trouble. The problem is, Russia was all ready and waiting for them to do this, locked and loaded. And NATO was neither expecting this, nor ready or able to do a damned thing, and there’s not much to indicate that NATO would have been willing even had we had the resources. Possibly the US, possibly not. But the US, being tied up on two fronts, really can’t afford to go ‘toe to toe with the Russkis.’ We also want Russia’s help in making sure Iran doesn’t get a nuke, although it doesn’t look like we’re going to get it. Europe needs Russian oil and natural gas, or Aberzaijan’s. Unfortunately, a lot of that latter goes through pipelines in Georgia that Russia has just destroyed. Surprise! So Europe is scared of pissing off Russia, aside from the little matter of Russia being right there and having lots of tanks and stuff. **mswas** , is that a decent summary? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2008, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/245 "2008-08-13T18:03:29Z")
[QUOTE=Oy!] Oh, god, **mswas** is a much better source for this than I am. If you go back to some of the articles she has referenced earlier in the thread, I think you’ll see what I’m talking about. But at base, S. Ossetia was a totally autonomous region (at least, wrt Georgia), with Russian troops permanently stationed there as so-called peacekeepers. Whether legally part of Georgia or not, only a third of its population self-identifies as Georgian. Yes, they were doing some provoking of their own. But Georgia went in with guns blazing, not only attacking S. Ossetia (and mostly civilian targets, because as I understand it, S. Ossetia doesn’t have much of a military of its own), but Russian troops. They did this figuring either they could sort of sneak it by Russia during the Olympics, or that NATO would bale them out if they got into trouble. The problem is, Russia was all ready and waiting for them to do this, locked and loaded. And NATO was neither expecting this, nor ready or able to do a damned thing, and there’s not much to indicate that NATO would have been willing even had we had the resources. Possibly the US, possibly not. But the US, being tied up on two fronts, really can’t afford to go ‘toe to toe with the Russkis.’ We also want Russia’s help in making sure Iran doesn’t get a nuke, although it doesn’t look like we’re going to get it. Europe needs Russian oil and natural gas, or Aberzaijan’s. Unfortunately, a lot of that latter goes through pipelines in Georgia that Russia has just destroyed. Surprise! So Europe is scared of pissing off Russia, aside from the little matter of Russia being right there and having lots of tanks and stuff. **mswas** , is that a decent summary? [/QUOTE] Seems fairly adequate to me. Wasn’t there some assault on Abkhazia too? My info on this is pretty fresh also. I just spent the last few days reading almost every article and post that came my way. I don’t pretend to be an expert, but your description is pretty well in line with what I have been led to understand. Basically there is one pipeline in Southern Georgia that is the ONLY line not controlled by Arabs or Russians. I think that’s the main significance toward European energy supplies. [Map of Georgia with relevant pipeline](http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44912000/gif/_44912891_georgia_v4_466.gif) Ultimately the idea that Georgia had the right to put down a rebellion in S. Ossetia seems to be the point of contention. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2008, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/246 "2008-08-13T18:17:39Z")
Yeah, after defending South Ossetia by tossing Georgia out and extensively bombing Georgian cities unrelated to S. Ossetia, Russia apparently decided to further defend it by pre-emptively invading the other potential breakaway area of Abkhazia, in case Georgia hadn’t fully gotten the message that Russia could beat the crap out of them with one hand tied behind its back. For a while it appeared that they would end the lesson by moving onward to the capital Tblisi and swallowing Georgia entirely, but now they have agreed to withdraw to the pre 8/6 fighting positions. The only problem is that apparently neither they nor Georgia seem to be respecting the cease-fire, or so each nation claims about the other, while each claims itself to be pure as the driven snow, of course. I believe that pipeline is the one that the Russians quite deliberately hit in several places yesterday or the day before, but I could be wrong. ETA: quite, not quiet ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2008, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/247 "2008-08-13T18:42:13Z")
[QUOTE=Oy!] I believe that pipeline is the one that the Russians quite deliberately hit in several places yesterday or the day before, but I could be wrong. [/QUOTE] Yes, that’s the one, but I heard that it wasn’t actually hit, but hit near. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/248 "2008-08-13T18:50:20Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Yes, that’s the one, but I heard that it wasn’t actually hit, but hit near. [/QUOTE] There’s a good reason not to destroy it. That pipline goes directly to the same source as the pipeline in Russia. They could piss of [Azerbaijan](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-battle-for-oil-eursquos-hope-to-bypass-russian-energy-may-be-a-pipe-dream-891499.html?action=Popup&gallery=no) in the process who in turn could cut them off. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2008, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/249 "2008-08-13T18:53:51Z")
Russia’s worried about pissing off Azerbaijan, who could cut them off? I thought Russia had its own oil. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2008, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/250 "2008-08-13T19:52:25Z")
[QUOTE=Oy!] Russia’s worried about pissing off Azerbaijan, who could cut them off? I thought Russia had its own oil. [/QUOTE] It’s flowing through a Russian port. There isn’t a huge gain for Russia to piss off Europe and scare small countries. There’s a reason why former Russian territories want the protection of NATO. They’re scared of being invaded by their former overlords. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2008, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/251 "2008-08-13T20:03:40Z")
[QUOTE=Oy!] But at base, S. Ossetia was a totally autonomous region (at least, wrt Georgia), with Russian troops permanently stationed there as so-called peacekeepers. Whether legally part of Georgia or not, only a third of its population self-identifies as Georgian. [/QUOTE] But S. Ossetia was only an autonomous region in the first place was because the Russians forced the Georgians to concede that. Remember how Russia was backing South Ossetian seperatists back in 1992? And this current thing started because the South Ossetian millitia was shooting at Georgian troops. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2008, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/252 "2008-08-13T20:15:28Z")
OK, **Magiver** , I’m not following you at all. a) At what point is that [pipeline](http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44912000/gif/_44912891_georgia_v4_466.gif) going through a Russian port? b) If Russia didn’t destroy that pipeline, they came pretty darned close - close enough to imply that they weren’t exactly making sure they missed it. c) Russia just did piss off Europe and scare small countries. [QUOTE=Captain Amazing] But S. Ossetia was only an autonomous region in the first place was because the Russians forced the Georgians to concede that. Remember how Russia was backing South Ossetian seperatists back in 1992? And this current thing started because the South Ossetian millitia was shooting at Georgian troops. [/QUOTE] Yes, but the fact is, that was sixteen years ago. Since then, S. Ossetia has been autonomous. Georgia has no innate right to the place, and it’s not like it’s inhabited by an overwhelmingly Georgian population begging to be part of Georgia again. It’s about one third Georgian, one third Ossetian (the other half of Ossetia is North Ossetia, which is part of Russia), and one third Russian/other. But above all, it was stupid because they attacked Russian troops and S. Ossetian civilians. Yes, S. Ossetian paramilitaries attacked them. Doesn’t matter. They attacked S. Ossetian civilians and Russian troops. That was all the excuse Russia had been waiting for, and apparently they had been waiting quite successfully and preparedly. They came ramming down on the Georgian troops with all the frustrated ire of a country who got essentially laughed out of existence in 1992. And there was very little Georgia could do about it, and nothing NATO could or would do about it, and that’s where Georgia really misplaced its faith. ETA: Cleanup ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2008, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/253 "2008-08-13T20:31:01Z")
Yet another informative article from a rather surprising source: [**Rattling the Cage: Sympathy for the aggressor**](http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1218446195149&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) > [@](#): > > \*\*…But now let’s find out the facts of this war, such as who started it. I read The New York Times, AP, Wikipedia and The Jerusalem Post, I watch BBC and Sky News and everybody is saying Georgia started it. There had been some shooting and skirmishes with the locals in South Ossetia, which is an enclave in Georgia on the border with Russia, and then Georgia shelled Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, and sent its troops in to take over. Anywhere from hundreds to thousands of civilians were killed, and tens of thousands became refugees. That was the start of the war. Then Russia retaliated overwhelmingly against Georgia. > > ALL RIGHT, so Georgia started it. But that doesn’t necessarily mean Georgia was wrong; maybe it was a war of self-defense, a justified war. So let’s see - what are the facts about the territory they were fighting over, South Ossetia? Which side are the people of South Ossetia on, Georgia’s or Russia’s? The 70,000 people of South Ossetia, it turns out, are what the media describe as “pro-Russian.” South Ossetia is what the media describe as a “breakaway province” inside Georgia. Which country is South Ossetia breaking away from? It’s breaking away from Georgia. It fought a war of secession against Georgia in the early 1990s. So did Abkhazia, another “pro-Russian, breakaway province” in Georgia on the Russian border. > > The people of South Ossetia and Abkhazia identify with Russia, not Georgia. Most of them have Russian passports. Over the past week, the fighters in South Ossetia and Abkhazia fought with Russian troops against Georgian troops. > > And finally, those tens of thousands of war refugees from South Ossetia - to which country did they flee for safety? To Russia. And who went to meet them? Putin. > > So what we’ve got here is a bloody war started by Georgia against a small, pro-Russian province it wants to rule - against the will of the people who live there. And when Russia retaliates against Georgia, the people of South Ossetia, along with the people of Abkhazia - the true victims of this war, the true underdogs, the true Davids - are grateful to Russia for saving them. > > YET THE world’s sympathy goes to Georgia, and its condemnation goes to Russia. Why? > > Because Russia has a bad history, because Russia was the West’s nemesis in the 20th century, because Russia wants to be an empire again, because Russia is much stronger than Georgia - while Georgia calls itself a democracy, Georgia is the darling of the Bush administration, Georgia’s president speaks good English and knows all the buzz words like “values” and “human rights” that Westerners love to hear, and because Georgia defies big, bad Russia. > > All this is true. But none of it changes the fact that in this war, Georgia was the aggressor and Russia the defender. > > Now that Georgia has lost the war, the world is saying that President Mikheil Saakashvili made a “miscalculation” by starting it. **Again, the world is wrong. Starting a war of conquest that kills and maims thousands of people is not a miscalculation, it’s a horrible, detestable crime.** The world should save its sympathy for South Ossetia and Abkhazia. I’m sorry for my ignorance and prejudice, but these days, when I think of Georgia, I think of the place Stalin came from.\*\* – bolding mine. More at source. While I am not as radical in my conclusions as this particular writer, I can’t help but noticed just how lightening fast the Cold War tinted glasses have come out in the near monolithic Western MSM coverage since the beginning of this conflict. * * * In fact, I think **Oy!** did a bang-up job giving a Reader’s Digest, even-handed version of events so far – and also showing how important having an open-mind is. From **Sam Stone’s** hardcore personal cheerleader to a certain Faux News reject. Well done My Lady! Which only leads me to conclude that sanity is not all gone. Cheers! ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2008, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/254 "2008-08-13T20:37:01Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] And this current thing started because the South Ossetian millitia was shooting at Georgian troops. [/QUOTE] Please, let’s inject some reality here. In a rebel enclave you are always going to have _some_ degree of hostility – but I’d like for a _reputable cite_ confirming that it was the Ossetian militia, in some sort of extra-hostile behavior that provoked Saak’s opening and murderous rampage. I can tell you beforehand: you won’t find one. Reputable that is. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2008, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/255 "2008-08-13T20:37:07Z")
[QUOTE=Oy!] OK, **Magiver** , I’m not following you at all. a) At what point is that [pipeline](http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44912000/gif/_44912891_georgia_v4_466.gif) going through a Russian port? b) If Russia didn’t destroy that pipeline, they came pretty darned close - close enough to imply that they weren’t exactly making sure they missed it. c) Russia just did piss off Europe and scare small countries. [/QUOTE] You need a [better map](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-battle-for-oil-eursquos-hope-to-bypass-russian-energy-may-be-a-pipe-dream-891499.html?action=Popup&gallery=no) says me. to see what be in the world to see. (hey, I posted this map twice already) And yes, they’re pissing off Europe and scaring little countries. My point that it wasn’t in their best interest. Europe isn’t going to attack them. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2008, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/256 "2008-08-13T20:39:23Z")
[QUOTE=Oy!] Georgia has no innate right to the place, and it’s not like it’s inhabited by an overwhelmingly Georgian population begging to be part of Georgia again. [/QUOTE] The place has been part of Georgia since the early middle ages. It’s been part of Georgia since before the Ossetians got there. So they have as much right to the place as anybody else. Should the fact that anti-Georgian South Ossetians have been able to have a Russian puppet government in control of the place for the past 16 years ago trump Georgia’s territorial integrity? ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2008, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/257 "2008-08-13T20:50:31Z")
At this point the fact that Russia is about a million times bigger than Georgia and has troops there trumps Georgia’s territorial integrity. If Georgia wanted S. Ossetia back, diplomacy was the correct route, not storming in with troops. It was a dumb move. Not saying there wasn’t anything understandable about it. Just that all in all, it was dumb. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2008, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/258 "2008-08-13T20:56:05Z")
BTW, **Cap Amazing** (America?) you keep asserting that this was an “in-house” operation by the Georgian Forces, thus it was a Russian invasion. But it simply is not quite that simple if you read-up on the lead-up circumstances. [**Misreading Ossetia – Chronology Matters**](http://www.russiablog.org/2008/08/war_in_georgia_mis-reading_ossetia.php#more) 1- > [@](#): > > …**Among those killed in the initial assault were Russian peacekeeping troops who were there as part of an agreement Tbilisi signed after the first war in the 1990s and recognized by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)** 2-Here’s the official stance of your own Government and the mutual respect both sides should hold for each other: [**The United States and the South Ossetian Conflict**](http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/fs/102834.htm) > [@](#): > > \*\*The June 24, 1992, Sochi Agreement established a cease-fire between the Georgian and South Ossetian forces and defined both a zone of conflict around the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali and a security corridor along the border of South Ossetian territories. The Agreement also created the Joint Control Commission (JCC), and a peacekeeping body, the Joint Peacekeeping Forces group (JPKF). The JCC was charged with demilitarizing the security zone in the conflict region and facilitating negotiations; it is Co-Chaired by Georgian, Russian, South Ossetian, and North Ossetian representatives. The JPKF is under Russian command and is comprised of peacekeepers from Georgia, Russia, and Russia’s North Ossetian autonomous republic (as the separatist South Ossetian government remained unrecognized). South Ossetian peacekeepers, however, serve in the North Ossetian contingent. The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) agreed to monitor the ceasefire and facilitate negotiations. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2008, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/259 "2008-08-13T21:11:48Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] In fact, I think **Oy!** did a bang-up job giving a Reader’s Digest, even-handed version of events so far – and also showing how important having an open-mind is. From **Sam Stone’s** hardcore personal cheerleader to a certain Faux News reject. Well done My Lady! Which only leads me to conclude that sanity is not all gone. Cheers! [/QUOTE] \ curtsey. If you bang me over the head enough, I eventually learn. I still think we need to find a way of sending Russia a message not to do it again. **Magiver** , that’s a great map. But I’m still not seeing how the pipeline that goes from Baku to Novorossiysk relates to the pipelines that go from Baku to Tblisi, Supsa, Ardahan, etc., except that they all start at Baku, which Russia wasn’t bombing. Unless you’re saying that both are pipelines that control exports from Aberzaijan, and thus bombing the pipeline is taking a risk of cutting off one source of Russian imported oil, because Aberzaijan might get pissed at Russia for bombing their pipeline? I would think that the fact that they bombed close to it would pretty much have taken care of that. I think that, like the USSR, Russia doesn’t always act in what appears, to our eyes, to be its own self-interest. That doesn’t mean it isn’t. It just means that its perception of its self-interest is different from our perception of its self-interest. And vice versa, which is one of the things that made the Cold War so dangerous. We can’t necessarily predict how they’ll act, because we don’t fully ‘get’ them. Again, I look to a President Obama to help fix that, the problem being that while we will be rid of Bush, they will _not_ be rid of Putin. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2008, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370/260 "2008-08-13T21:14:35Z")
To me, trying to find the hero and the villain here is nothing but masturbation. The fact is, it’s a political issue about power. Russia has unapologetically flexed it’s muscles. In the 21st century we do not like the idea of nations being so aggressive. It offends our western sensibilities. Yet, we cannot escape from history. This is history, this is reality, this is the way all of our nations have been forged. Russia may very well want to go expansionist in the near future. Putin may very well be making moves. I’m not ok with that. I don’t want Russia to win, but at this point they’ve captured a resource square and we’re simply not in a position to do anything about it. I think the pressure on Belarus is probably the most significant window into what’s going on. It shows an expansionist plan that is in place and has been well thought out. We’ll see if Belarus adopts the Ruble. Saakashvili may very well be out, and a slighted Georgia may see the way the wind is blowing and go more pro-Russia. Russia has a great deal of influence over Europe at this point and shows little fear of making moves that are not profitable in the short-term in order to make gains in real power, as opposed to currency that once spent is gone. I think the 21st century will resemble the 19th more than it will resemble the 20th. A Fascist Russia may very well be ascendant. From what I am hearing a serious Nationalism in the face of Russia’s humiliation during the 90s and it’s impending Demographic implosion, is on the rise. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-russia-determined-to-be-an-empire-again/459370.md?page=14)