# Is Samson the father of Goliath? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 27, 2016, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-samson-the-father-of-goliath/773128 "2016-11-27T04:12:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-samson-the-father-of-goliath/773128/21 "2016-11-28T02:50:12Z")
The notion that Samson was used as a “stud” while blind and imprisoned [comes from the _Aggadah_](https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/women-in-samsons-life-midrash-and-aggadah). > [@](#): > > The Rabbis also learn of Samson’s many liaisons with foreign women from his end. When Samson was imprisoned in Gaza he was a “mill slave [tohen] in the prison” (Jud. 16:21). The Rabbis understand the word “tohen” as meaning sin, specifically sexual misdoing, which they deduce from Job 31:10: “May my wife grind [tithan] for another, may others kneel over her!” Each of the Philistines would bring his wife to Samson’s prison, that he might impregnate her, so that they would have a child as strong and powerful as Samson. In this vein, the Rabbis cite the popular saying: “Before a wine drinker, set wine, before a plowman, set a basket of roots.” Since Samson was such a womanizer, they brought women to him (BT Sotah 10a). With these statements the Rabbis might mean to demonstrate, once again, that Samson’s beginnings determined his end and that his punishment fit the crime [of marrying a Philistine woman]. ---
**Author:** ![GinoC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f4b2a3/32.png) [@GinoC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GinoC)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-samson-the-father-of-goliath/773128/22 "2016-11-28T04:16:15Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I was referring primarily to his first post, and the fact that he was defending it on the basis of it being his own “fan fiction.” This was inappropriate, regardless of the degree to which the Old Testament may be fictional. > > Any further discussion of my moderator note should be taken to ATMB. > > Colibri > General Questions Moderator Appreciate the clarification. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-samson-the-father-of-goliath/773128/23 "2016-11-28T06:05:50Z")
Many historical characters pass into fiction and the significance of the details of the story escapes us even though they are preserved in the account. I think it was Malcolm Gladwell’s account of David and Goliath where he suggests that Goliath had a particular pituitary problem that, although he was extremely tall, left him relatively near-sighted. > [@](#): > > But there’s a second, deeper issue here. Saul and the Israelites think they know who Goliath is. They size him up and jump to conclusions about what they think he is capable of. But they do not really see him. The truth is that Goliath’s behavior is puzzling. He is supposed to be a mighty warrior. But he’s not acting like one. He comes down to the valley floor accompanied by an attendant—a servant walking before him, carrying a shield. Shield bearers in ancient times often accompanied archers into battle because a soldier using a bow and arrow had no free hand to carry any kind of protection on his own. But why does Goliath, a man calling for sword-on-sword single combat, need to be assisted by a third party carrying an archer’s shield? > > What’s more, why does he say to David, “Come to me”? Why can’t Goliath go to David? The biblical account emphasizes how slowly Goliath moves, which is an odd thing to say about someone who is alleged to be a battle hero of infinite strength. In any case, why doesn’t Goliath respond much sooner to the sight of David coming down the hillside without any sword or shield or armor? When he first sees David, his first reaction is to be insulted, when he should be terrified. He seems oblivious of what’s happening around him. There is even that strange comment after he finally spots David with his shepherd’s staff: “Am I a dog that you should come to me with sticks?” Sticks plural? David is holding only one stick. > > What many medical experts now believe, in fact, is that Goliath had a serious medical condition. He looks and sounds like someone suffering from what is called acromegaly—a disease caused by a benign tumor of the pituitary gland. The tumor causes an overproduction of human growth hormone, which would explain Goliath’s extraordinary size. (The tallest person in history, Robert Wadlow, suffered from acromegaly. At his death, he was eight foot eleven inches, and apparently still growing.) > > And furthermore, one of the common side effects of acromegaly is vision problems. Pituitary tumors can grow to the point where they compress the nerves leading to the eyes, with the result that people with acromegaly often suffer from severely restricted sight and diplopia, or double vision. Why was Goliath led onto the valley floor by an attendant? Because the attendant was his visual guide. Why does he move so slowly? Because the world around him is a blur. Why does it take him so long to understand that David has changed the rules? Because he doesn’t see David until David is up close. “Come to me, that I may give your flesh to the birds of the heavens and the beasts of the field,” he shouts out, and in that request there is a hint of his vulnerability. I need you to come to me because I cannot locate you otherwise. And then there is the otherwise inexplicable “Am I a dog that you come to me with sticks?” David had only one stick. Goliath saw two. > > What the Israelites saw, from high on the ridge, was an intimidating giant. In reality, the very thing that gave the giant his size was also the source of his greatest weakness. There is an important lesson in that for battles with all kinds of giants. The powerful and the strong are not always what they seem. > > David came running toward Goliath, powered by courage and faith. Goliath was blind to his approach—and then he was down, too big and slow and blurry-eyed to comprehend the way the tables had been turned. All these years, we’ve been telling these kinds of stories wrong. David and Goliath is about getting them right. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-samson-the-father-of-goliath/773128/24 "2016-11-28T09:12:29Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Although that does involve the theologically troubling notion that the inspiration of scripture included encoding meanings that would be hidden from all but English speakers, and that would only be accessible to them from about 1500 years after the composition of the gospels. > > In fact, as far as we know, the modern English sense is a product of the biblical usage. In the parables, the “talents” seem to stand for advantages and opportunities given to people that they have not earned. Hence the application of the word to natural endowments or innate aptitudes. Thank you for that take on talent. As for you find the notion troubling, my belief allows for God speaking to people in different groups of people differently, the way they need given their culture. (also I believe everything ever written is scripture, God inspired, God created) Much like a parent talking to multiple children, not all need to hear the exact same thing, but be instructed for who they are and for their good and guidance. This to me is the basis of the world wide multiple religions that all appear to converge to the same principles. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-samson-the-father-of-goliath/773128/25 "2016-11-28T10:13:58Z")
The Midrash (Jewish oral legend) says that Goliath was descended from Orpah, the sister of Ruth (ancestress of David - so you see the narrative symmetry) who did not return to Israel with Naomi. I don’t see anything that makes a connection with Samson and Delilah, though of course, nothing specifically rules it out, either. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-samson-the-father-of-goliath/773128/26 "2016-11-28T11:20:45Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > As I understand it, with myths and legends the core characters are usually real, albeit highly embellished and often syncretised. Something prompted the story. And sometimes that something is the cycle of seasons, such as the stories of descent into the underworld (Persephone, Ishtar, etc.) that never required an actual historical person but the figures made up entirely to fit the story. I think that there is evidence worth considering that the Samson/Delilah story is a [solar myth](https://www.google.com/#q=samson+solar+myth), with [this](http://mathisencorollary.blogspot.com/2015/01/samson-and-seven-locks-of-his-head.html) being one of the better links I googled up. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-samson-the-father-of-goliath/773128/27 "2016-11-28T15:38:01Z")
Eh, every culture in history has had champions, mighty fighters, and war heroes, so it’s no stretch to suppose that Israel had one, too. Was he named Samson? Sure, why not? And was he eventually defeated by a woman from the enemy’s side seducing him? Well, it’s not an uncommon way for such heroes to be defeated. The bit about the hair, yeah, that’s probably an embellishment. And his kill count is almost certainly inflated. But the rest is plausible enough. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-samson-the-father-of-goliath/773128/28 "2016-11-28T19:27:07Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > I think it was Malcolm Gladwell’s account of David and Goliath where he suggests that Goliath had a particular pituitary problem that, although he was extremely tall, left him relatively near-sighted. AFAIK, shield men accompanied any great warrior who didn’t have a free hand. If you fought with a two-handed weapon, or carried a weapon in each hand you had a shield man. The stick/sticks thing seems to me to be reading significance where there is none. Goliath says “sticks” when presumably looking at only one stick. So what? Finally, if Goliath had so many problems, why in the nine hells would they pick him as their champion? Why not pick another warrior who, though shorter, was a better fighter? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-samson-the-father-of-goliath/773128/29 "2016-11-28T19:51:26Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Finally, if Goliath had so many problems, why in the nine hells would they pick him as their champion? Why not pick another warrior who, though shorter, was a better fighter? I think the idea is, there _was_ no better hand-to-hand fighter. Like, as soon as you get close enough to this guy, he’s going to bring his sword down on you so hard that your armor is going to be useless: he’s big and he’s strong, and he’s done it before; and he’s got so much of a reach advantage that he’ll cripple or kill you juuuust before you get close enough to try any silly fencer tricks with your weaker swordarm. Of course, if you stay like twenty feet away he maybe can’t discern your features or anything – but so what? Once you get near the guy, it’s like you’re up against that impressive-looking swordsman who totally would’ve killed Indiana Jones. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-samson-the-father-of-goliath/773128/30 "2016-11-28T22:51:44Z")
And “grinding grain” is an obvious put-down. The typical grain mill in areas without water for motive power was a grindstone turned by an ox or some such animal harnessed to it and walking in a circle to turn it all day long. Turning a once-mighty warrior into a captive doing the job of a brainless ox all day is simply a way of showing how much he had fallen. (Somewhere else in the bible is the admonishment, “do not muzzle the ox that grinds the grain” i.e. let the poor thing eat any grain that spills into his path… don’t be petty and cheap with the menials who work for you.) ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-samson-the-father-of-goliath/773128/31 "2016-11-30T06:55:37Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > AFAIK, shield men accompanied any great warrior who didn’t have a free hand. If you fought with a two-handed weapon, or carried a weapon in each hand you had a shield man. > > The stick/sticks thing seems to me to be reading significance where there is none. Goliath says “sticks” when presumably looking at only one stick. So what? > > Finally, if Goliath had so many problems, why in the nine hells would they pick him as their champion? Why not pick another warrior who, though shorter, was a better fighter? The ‘great warriors’ were upper class. They had servants. Today we are used to the idea that every soldier carries his own stuff everywhere. This wasn’t so in ancient times. It was normal to have servants with you on campaign. Not just the officers. Even the greek citizen hoplites had servants to carry the heavier stuff, while on the march. It was normal to only put on all the armour right before the lines actually met. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-samson-the-father-of-goliath/773128/32 "2016-11-30T07:19:58Z")
Let’s not forget that Samson is a judge–a pre-royal leader of Israel. And it makes sense that said leader might be some great fighter. I see no reason the hair thing can’t be true. It sounds exactly like the sort of thing people would do. It doesn’t have to be supernatural–he believe his vow was the source of his strength, and that his hair being cut violated that vow, so then he believed he was weaker. I do doubt that he was asked three times, though. That’s a common story telling device, and a way to “prove” it was his hair that was the issue. It’s honestly hard to believe that even an arrogant “musclehead” would let it happen 3 times. And, yes, kill counts almost certainly get inflated over time. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-samson-the-father-of-goliath/773128/33 "2016-11-30T07:40:00Z")
Speaking of his judgeship, I actually initially thought what the first few posters said–that the timeline was too far apart. But, when using Google to confirm, I got stuff about Samson being the last Judge of Israel (as he is the last one mentioned in Judges). If so, then the timing can work. (If anything, the timing might be a bit short for Goliath to be old enough to fight.) The other stuff people say all checks out, though. There is no such tradition, and there are other explanations for his height. There were indeed “giants” in those days, according to the text. It makes more sense that he was descended from them. Samson’s height is never given as being remotely unusual. Plus, his powers come from a [Nazirite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazirite) vow (basically an ascetic vow), not some genetic superiority, and those powers disappear when he allows the vow to be broken improperly. Goliath has no such vow to the Lord, so why would he get any of Samson’s power? It just doesn’t work with the myth. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-samson-the-father-of-goliath/773128/34 "2016-11-30T08:25:15Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > The Goliath story is one of the least likely to be authentic, more like the Washington/cherry tree, but the person who first attached it to David may have known of a real story about a young and inexperienced soldier who brought down a big guy who was a soldier with a legendary reputation. It’s pretty clear that that is exactly what happened. 2 Samuel 21:19 says (JPS), “And there was again war with the Philistines at Gob; and Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim the Beth-lehemite slew Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam.” Since 1 Sam 17 describes the man David fought as a Gittite named Goliath, “And the staff of his spear was like a weaver’s beam,” it’s almost certainly the same man. Of course, that contradicts the David story, and translators who think they can do better than God in preserving the true meaning of the Biblical text want to help, so this is the same verse in the KJV, emphasis mine: “And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew _ **the brother of** _ Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam.” The original Hebrew has no hint of “brother” in that verse, so it was obviously inserted by translators to avoid the contradiction. Not just in the King James, but in many modern bibles, including one of the very latest, the Net Bible. By the way, the fact that translators are able to do this, and have their changes persist, apparently forever, should be all you need to know about inerrancy. As to the OP, Samson seemed to do whatever he wanted, so it’s not impossible that he had affairs with Philistine women, even before he was captured. But there’s a much more likely source of Goliath’s size. The same chapter I quoted above says that Goliath and three other very large men were descendants of Rapha. Deuteronomy refers to the Rephaim as a race of giants (Moses himself speaks of one whose bed was 13 feet long), and it’s plausible that over the years, the spelling changed slightly. Note that Samson, while strong, was not described as extraordinarily large in the Bible (although there are non-Biblical embellishments that say he was). > [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > “Grinding grain” sounds suggestive to us because we use the term _grinding_ in English slang to refer to the rubbing and thrusting motions of sex (and dancing). Is there any evidence that it was used as a euphemism in Biblical Hebrew? I’m no expert in Biblical Hebrew, but I believe that the literal translation is, “hiking the Appalachian trail.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-samson-the-father-of-goliath/773128/35 "2016-11-30T12:05:08Z")
There’s another problem with this notion that should be obvious: Goliath was really big (whatever that means: 7’? 9’?), and his strength clearly derived from his size. Samson, however, was strong, but it’s never implied that he was particularly big. Having him as Goliath’s father doesn’t really explain anything, because we still need to explain why Goliath was so big. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-samson-the-father-of-goliath/773128/36 "2016-11-30T12:08:38Z")
Ugh, that’s what I get for chiming in before completely reading the newest posts. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-samson-the-father-of-goliath/773128/37 "2016-11-30T12:36:17Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Of course, that contradicts the David story, and translators who think they can do better than God in preserving the true meaning of the Biblical text want to help, so this is the same verse in the KJV, emphasis mine: “And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew _ **the brother of** _ Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam.” > > The original Hebrew has no hint of “brother” in that verse, so it was obviously inserted by translators to avoid the contradiction. Not just in the King James, but in many modern bibles, including one of the very latest, the Net Bible. > > By the way, the fact that translators are able to do this, and have their changes persist, apparently forever, should be all you need to know about inerrancy. The rest of your post is spot on, but I do want to quibble about this. First off, the KJV puts those words in italics, which is their way of indicating that the clarification was not part of the original text. But, more importantly, they didn’t make it up themselves. They just followed what Chronicles said. So, if anyone cleaned up the narrative, it happened before then. To use the JPS, as you did: And there was again war with the Philistines; and Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam. (1 Chronicles 20:5) See, by that point, he even has a name. (And if you know about how Chronicles was made, you know that they combined multiple sources. I for one think Kings was one of them.) ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-samson-the-father-of-goliath/773128/38 "2016-11-30T22:23:05Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The rest of your post is spot on, but I do want to quibble about this. First off, the KJV puts those words in italics, which is their way of indicating that the clarification was not part of the original text. Yes, the original KJV does. But [many others](http://biblehub.com/2_samuel/21-19.htm), including the American King James and the King James 2000, do not. And many people reading the KJV are unaware of the significance of the italics, or don’t even notice them. > [@](#): > > But, more importantly, they didn’t make it up themselves. They just followed what Chronicles said. They didn’t make it up, but they did “help” God by harmonizing it with Chronicles. Where do they get off doing this? What if somebody else decides to harmonize Matthew with Luke, and changes one or both of Jesus’ genealogies, or the inscriptions on the cross? What if somebody decides to change historical events to more closely accord with an earlier prophecy, or vice versa? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-samson-the-father-of-goliath/773128/39 "2016-11-30T23:07:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The bit about the hair, yeah, that’s probably an embellishment. And his kill count is almost certainly inflated. But the rest is plausible enough. The whole awful story is plausible enough? There’s quite a bit there - multiple mass murders, a beehive inside the carcass of a dead lion that he tore apart with his bare hands, arson, it’s really terrible. He had all this strength as a gift of God and used it to create the most mayhem possible when throwing a childish temper tantrum. I mean, the story’s really horrible. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-samson-the-father-of-goliath/773128/40 "2016-11-30T23:23:37Z")
The costume and the superpowers are probably embellishments, but aside from that, it seems perfectly plausible that Clark Kent was a real person. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-samson-the-father-of-goliath/773128.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-samson-the-father-of-goliath/773128.md?page=3)