# Is Satanism too bland? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2008, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-satanism-too-bland/471251 "2008-11-05T09:55:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-satanism-too-bland/471251/21 "2008-11-06T00:01:30Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > In contrast, I wouldn’t be bothered by a neighbor who worshiped Malik Tuus, the Peacock Angel. The Yazidi generally keep to themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-satanism-too-bland/471251/22 "2008-11-06T00:11:02Z")
> [@Junior\_Spaceman](#): > > Euronymous, like lots of ‘Satanists’, said one thing to the fanzines, and another to the mainstream media. Whether he actually made soup out of Dead’s brains or not, the first thing he did when he found the body was get his camera and take photos, which were spread far and wide (even ending up on bootleg covers). Well, one bootleg cover anyway. [Dawn of the Black Hearts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawn_of_the_Black_Hearts) > [@](#): > > Are you serious? You’ve never heard of Varg Vikernes? Or is this like a True Scotsman thing (ie no true BM fan would be a White Supremacist). There are a load of interviews with major bands in the mid nineties when racism came up - sure, it was more in the Polish ‘scene’ (which seems to have been about ten people in total), but also in Norway. Yeah, the Polish scene, all 10 of them, were dicks. And I agree that Vikernes is a dick, too. But white supremacy wasn’t a focal point for the music, it’s just a few people who think/thought that way. > [@](#): > > Even if the circle was only ten people, for a year or two they were ‘for real’ - Bard Faust stabbing someone just to know what it’s like to kill; terrorism; etc. They claimed they were doing it for Satan, or in his name, so to me, that’s what matters. Yeah but they were no more a gang than the Trenchcoat Mafia was a gang. Just a bunch of idiots hanging out together. > [@Varg Vikernes](#): > > First of all the so-called Black Circle was something Euronymous made up because he wanted to make people believe there was such a thing, but it was nonsense and never existed. The media on the other hand believed it existed for a while, but quickly stopped talking about it when they understood it was a fake rumour. > [@Bård Faust](#): > > It’s just a name that was invented for the people who hung out at the shop … there wasn’t anything like members and membership cards and official meetings. ---
**Author:** ![Junior\_Spaceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Junior\_Spaceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Junior_Spaceman)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-satanism-too-bland/471251/23 "2008-11-06T00:26:56Z")
Whether they were ‘idiots’ or a ‘real gang’ or not, is irrelevant. Racism was definitely a part of Black Metal in Norway. When I can get hold of them, I’ll post some quotes from people who were central to the Black Metal world at that time (1991-1994). Varg killing Euronymous split the scene, and those who followed Varg after he became a skinhead, followed a racist line (he started deliberately using the term ‘Judeo-Christian’ rather than just Christian, as an example, and many others followed). ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-satanism-too-bland/471251/24 "2008-11-06T00:42:17Z")
According to the Wikipedia article on [Satanism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism), the sect known as “Luciferianism” has recently been cast out from the Church of Satan for the offense of being too Christian. That’s pretty funny if it’s a put-on, and even funnier if it’s not. “Get thee before me, Savior!” I must say also that the photo of High Priest Peter H. Gilmore suggests a remarkably folksy side to the Church of Satan. “Have you accepted Satan into your life? Order today and enjoy this limited-offer music collection, featuring the mellow stylings of Pete Gilmore singing Satan’s favorite country hits.” ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-satanism-too-bland/471251/25 "2008-11-06T00:51:13Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > **jackdavinci** - what purpose would it serve for Satanists to start doing the things you think they should? As you probably know from my previous thread on the subject I’m a Satanist and I don’t particularly want to break laws, get fried or sacrifice animals/babies. Just not my thing, I’m afraid. I think what sets Satanists apart is our ability to think unconventionally and not be constrained by traditional morality if it doesn’t suit us. “Sure, I do that too” the average doper might say, but when you scratch the surface you find that far more people are working on Christian/traditional sub-routines than they often realise. I thought you were a Vampire Cultist? ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-satanism-too-bland/471251/26 "2008-11-06T00:51:33Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I’m sorry, but this is just not correct. Yes it is. I didn’t say the name had never been used, but it was used to refer to what was effectively inverted Christianity. Satanism as a heresy of Christianity is merely a label for opposition to Christianity, that’s not a religion. What LaVey founded was a religion with a consistent set of scriptures, doctrine, ritual etc. Until LaVey there was satanism, after him there was Satanism. As for the use of the name, as you yourself know acceptance of the name isn’t a priority for Satanists (or indeed Vampires/werewolves/Witches etc). However we’re not the ones complaining that the name is ambiguous or does not reflect perception, that’s what non-Satanists do. We’re clear what it means so we see no need to change it to suit others. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-satanism-too-bland/471251/27 "2008-11-06T00:52:49Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > I thought you were a Vampire Cultist? :rolleyes: When you know what you’re talking about I’ll engage with you. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-satanism-too-bland/471251/28 "2008-11-06T00:53:40Z")
> [@Junior\_Spaceman](#): > > Whether they were ‘idiots’ or a ‘real gang’ or not, is irrelevant. Racism was definitely a part of Black Metal in Norway. When I can get hold of them, I’ll post some quotes from people who were central to the Black Metal world at that time (1991-1994). Varg killing Euronymous split the scene, and those who followed Varg after he became a skinhead, followed a racist line (he started deliberately using the term ‘Judeo-Christian’ rather than just Christian, as an example, and many others followed). Please do. The NBM scene is fascinating. Unfortunately, I think most of the music (like 99% of it) is crap, but at least the style and the extra-curricular activities are interesting. I’m always looking to learn more. btw, did you see [Metal: A Headbanger’s Journey](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0478209/)? The DVD extra about the NBM scene has some excellent interviews. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-satanism-too-bland/471251/29 "2008-11-06T01:04:34Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > :rolleyes: > > When you know what you’re talking about I’ll engage with you. [Are you now or have you ever been a Vampire Cultist?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=488828&highlight=vampire) If you don’t want to explain the difference to me that’s fine. But don’t play games when we both know exactly what I’m asking about. ---
**Author:** ![Junior\_Spaceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Junior\_Spaceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Junior_Spaceman)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-satanism-too-bland/471251/30 "2008-11-06T01:06:07Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Please do. The NBM scene is fascinating. Unfortunately, I think most of the music (like 99% of it) is crap, but at least the style and the extra-curricular activities are interesting. I actually quite like a lot of the music from the early nineties, but like most things, history keeps getting re-written by the people involved. I think the most important moment for this was a very long interview with Fenriz published in the German ‘Soluzen’ magazine (I don’t think it’s online - if anyone knows if it is, please let me know!) in around 1996. He basically got quite drunk and showed a sense of humour that nobody before that in the scene had allowed themselves to. Since then, he’s gotten more and more silly (in a good way, IMHO). The thing was, when he was friends with Varg (letting Varg write half of the lyrics on Transylvanian Hunger, and at least one song on Panzerfaust), he came out with some pretty dodgy statements. The most infamous one is something like saying that anyone who boycotted Darkthrone should be abused for their “obviously Jewish behaviour”. Later, he claimed that using ‘Jewish’ in that way was common in Norway. Putting “Norsk Arisk Black Metal” (“Norwegian Aryan Black Metal”) on the back of one of their records didn’t help either. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-satanism-too-bland/471251/31 "2008-11-06T01:17:37Z")
> [@Junior\_Spaceman](#): > > Putting “Norsk Arisk Black Metal” (“Norwegian Aryan Black Metal”) on the back of one of their records didn’t help either. My copy of said record doesn’t have that phrase anywhere. My impression is that it was just for shock value, and once they realized they could sell more records without it, it disappeared quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Junior\_Spaceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Junior\_Spaceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Junior_Spaceman)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-satanism-too-bland/471251/32 "2008-11-06T01:30:31Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > My copy of said record doesn’t have that phrase anywhere. My impression is that it was just for shock value, and once they realized they could sell more records without it, it disappeared quickly. I’m guessing you have the second Peaceville edition? Because it’s on the first one, and also on the Australian version which was put out by a person strongly rumoured to be, himself, a Nazi-sympathiser. Peaceville dropped the band in 1994 because of that and the aforementioned other stupid comments. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-satanism-too-bland/471251/33 "2008-11-06T02:06:36Z")
Only on the Dope will we get regular members arguing about the specific version of an obscure Norweigen sub-sub-sub-sub-musical genera, but also someone arguing that satanism was made up by some dude in the sixties – and all with specifics and cites if necessary. Wonderful. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-satanism-too-bland/471251/34 "2008-11-06T02:15:06Z")
> [@Junior\_Spaceman](#): > > I’m guessing you have the second Peaceville edition? Because it’s on the first one, and also on the Australian version which was put out by a person strongly rumoured to be, himself, a Nazi-sympathiser. Peaceville dropped the band in 1994 because of that and the aforementioned other stupid comments. Most likely. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-satanism-too-bland/471251/35 "2008-11-06T02:47:32Z")
> [@Junior\_Spaceman](#): > > I actually quite like a lot of the music from the early nineties, but like most things, history keeps getting re-written by the people involved. I think the most important moment for this was a very long interview with Fenriz published in the German ‘Soluzen’ magazine (I don’t think it’s online - if anyone knows if it is, please let me know!) in around 1996. He basically got quite drunk and showed a sense of humour that nobody before that in the scene had allowed themselves to. Since then, he’s gotten more and more silly (in a good way, IMHO). > > The thing was, when he was friends with Varg (letting Varg write half of the lyrics on Transylvanian Hunger, and at least one song on Panzerfaust), he came out with some pretty dodgy statements. The most infamous one is something like saying that anyone who boycotted Darkthrone should be abused for their “obviously Jewish behaviour”. Later, he claimed that using ‘Jewish’ in that way was common in Norway. Putting “Norsk Arisk Black Metal” (“Norwegian Aryan Black Metal”) on the back of one of their records didn’t help either. I looked for that interview, and I think it might be available in German. I don’t speak German well at all tho, so I can’t really tell all of what I’m looking at from my google searches. ---
**Author:** ![Junior\_Spaceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Junior\_Spaceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Junior_Spaceman)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-satanism-too-bland/471251/36 "2008-11-06T03:37:18Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > Most likely. Or I could just be talking through my hat. But it’s definitely on the Australian version. > [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Only on the Dope will we get regular members arguing about the specific version of an obscure Norweigen sub-sub-sub-sub-musical genera, [snip] – and all with specifics and cites if necessary. Wonderful. Thanks for the laugh 🙂 Not to mention the post/poster’s name connection > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I looked for that interview, and I think it might be available in German. I don’t speak German well at all tho, so I can’t really tell all of what I’m looking at from my google searches. Can you please post the cite? I’ll recognise it if it’s the same one. Also, I’ve decided there’s no point posting random racist/supremacist quotes from various turkeys from the Black Metal scene. [This article](http://swiki.hfbk-hamburg.de:8888/Lebensreform/uploads/26/Coogan_how%20black%20is%20black%20metal.2.htm) is not so much about fascism and black metal, but about fascism and Michael Moynihan (of Blood Axis, and the author of the great **Lords of Chaos** book). For more on the connection, check out [http://ww](http://ww) [w.nsbm.org/](http://w.nsbm.org/) (link broken, as it may get you in trouble at work it hate sites are banned). ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-satanism-too-bland/471251/37 "2008-11-06T04:15:35Z")
**Junior Spaceman** , the German site was some sort of publishing clearinghouse or something, and I couldnt seem to get anything other than a list of names. [This guy](http://lists.garnix.org/sympa/arc/coldmeat-l/2000-02/msg00128.html) and [this guy](http://metal-archives.com/board/viewtopic.php?p=119032&sid=19cfedba6a61faddcd6e219c13a065d7) are both selling copies of Soluzen #4 (the cold meat guy only wants $6 for it). ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-satanism-too-bland/471251/38 "2008-11-06T05:04:28Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Yes it is. I didn’t say the name had never been used… Sure you did: > [@](#): > > …prior to LaVey there wasn’t anything called Satanism with a defined meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Junior\_Spaceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Junior\_Spaceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Junior_Spaceman)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-satanism-too-bland/471251/39 "2008-11-06T05:47:41Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > **Junior Spaceman** , the German site was some sort of publishing clearinghouse or something, and I couldnt seem to get anything other than a list of names. > > [This guy](http://lists.garnix.org/sympa/arc/coldmeat-l/2000-02/msg00128.html) and [this guy](http://metal-archives.com/board/viewtopic.php?p=119032&sid=19cfedba6a61faddcd6e219c13a065d7) are both selling copies of Soluzen #4 (the cold meat guy only wants $6 for it). Ah, cheers. I actually have a print copy of the magazine, but have wondered whether it was ever online. I might scan it some time and put it up somewhere. And **WhyNot** , for whatever reason, he’s sticking to the distinction between large ‘S’ Satanism [sub]TM[/sub] and small ‘s’ satanism. ---
**Author:** ![BigBertha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@BigBertha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigBertha)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-satanism-too-bland/471251/40 "2008-11-06T05:56:47Z")
Has anyone ever heard of the o.t.o.? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-satanism-too-bland/471251.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-satanism-too-bland/471251.md?page=3)