# Is Sauron's absence from the pages of LotR a good thing or a bad one? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 23, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938 "2011-05-23T19:17:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/21 "2011-05-23T21:35:43Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Did Sauron make a better run at being evil than Morgoth? > > I am reading “The Children of Hurin”. It was said that the tale of Turin was 6000 years before the War of the Ring. According to this webpage ( [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline\_of\_Arda](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Arda) ) Morgoth only lasted 5590 years before being cast into the void. 🙂 We do not and cannot know how long Morgoth was actively in rebellion to Eru and contending against the Valar, because before the creation of the Sun & Moon, there was no timekeeping in any sense that corresponds to our year. I’m in the camp that says the Spring of Arda lasted for hundreds of thousands of years, and also that the Elves were active for scores of millennia before the awakening of Men. Anyway, to answer your question, I think that, at his worst, Sauron was a pale imitation of Melkor, and that Melkor’s reign of terror lasted longer and was far broader in extent. I also don’t think Sauron ever completely renounced his blasphemous worship of Melkor. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/22 "2011-05-23T21:37:32Z")
After Pippin see’s Sauron in the palantir of Orthanc, Sauron speaks to him, and Pippin later repeats it to Gandalf. ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/23 "2011-05-23T21:42:09Z")
I googled this so don’t blame me if it’s wrong or give me any credit if it’s right but apparently Sauron has a small speaking role in the Silmarillion: > [@](#): > > Then straightaway they brought him into the dreadful presence of Sauron; and Sauron said: ‘I hear now that thou wouldst barter with me. What is thy price?’ > And Gorlim answered that he should find Eilinel again, and with her be set free; for he thought Eilinel also had been made captive. > > Than Sauron smiled, saying: ‘That is a small price for so great a treachery. So shall it surely be. Say on!’ > > Now Gorlim would have drawn back, but daunted by the eyes of Sauron he told at last all that he would know. Then Sauron laughed; and he mocked Gorlim, and revealed to him that he had only seen a phantom devised by wizardry to entrap him; for Eilinel was dead. ‘Nonetheless I will grant thy prayer,’ said Sauron; ‘and thou shalt go to Eilinel, and be set free of my service.’ Then he put him cruelly to death. From [here](http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?20111-Did-Sauron-ever-have-spoken-parts-in-the-book) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/24 "2011-05-23T21:54:32Z")
It was correct limit him in the book. That way when he posts of SDMB it is all the more terrifying. But his blog, “Sauron’s Blog”, kinda makes him look like Peter Pan’s Captain Hook. He does make a few appearances in The Silmarillion and the various other books of notes. I find Sauron more evil than Morgoth, who comes off as a petulant spoiled child who started a really bad biker club to terrorize the civilians. Obviously, Morgoth was more powerful. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/25 "2011-05-23T22:43:53Z")
Bear in mind too that JRRT’s conceit is to present LOTR as an historical work, and history can only be based on sources that are extant. Everything that happens is something that witnesses by the Hobbit characters or by someone they would have been able to interview later (mainly Gimli and Legolas). That plus whatever later scholars would have been able to piece together after the “Red Book of Westmarch” was brought to Minas Tirith a generation or so later. The paragraph describing Sauron’s reaction when he realized that the Ring had been brought to Mount Doom is something that an ancient scholar might get away with fabricating, brief as it is and based on some pretty good assumptions. Notice too how little of Gandalf’s activities are related, except when the other characters are there to witness them or to hear his brief accounts of them later in the story. This goes along with **Alka Selzer** ’s point about keeping other-than-human characters mysterious. ---
**Author:** ![Niniel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/df705f/32.png) [@Niniel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Niniel)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/26 "2011-05-23T22:52:46Z")
Sauron’s notable absence from the Lord of the Rings appears to be a somewhat common criticism of the book. Having your primary villain never appear in-the-flesh is certainly unconventional, but I think it works with the narrative. It’s never bothered me, personally. The only reason I think an appearance of Sauron would’ve added anything to the story is to provide a clearer explanation for his motives (power, dominion, and ultimately order). I don’t think that was ever discussed in the book itself beyond the most basic, as I recall having to turn to Tolkien’s Letters and HoME for that information. As for my opinion on Sauron vs Morgoth: While Morgoth caused greater destruction and misery, Sauron was far more clever than his former master. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/27 "2011-05-23T22:57:53Z")
> [@Niniel](#): > > Sauron’s notable absence from the Lord of the Rings appears to be a somewhat common criticism of the book. Having your primary villain never appear in-the-flesh is certainly unconventional, but I think it works with the narrative. It’s never bothered me, personally. The only reason I think an appearance of Sauron would’ve added anything to the story is to provide a clearer explanation for his motives (power, dominion, and ultimately order). Why do you want an explanation of Sauron’s motivations? ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/28 "2011-05-24T00:49:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > A good writer can make a character’s presence real without having that character voice any lines or make an actual appearance. I think JRRT did just fine in that effort. > [@Oy](#): > > Jackson worked well with this, by only showing Sauron as a huge (but not ten stories tall huge, more within the very extremes of natural growth huge) humanoid figure with magnificently worked, cruel armor covering him entirely. To me that was far scarier than the Balrog or the Orcs we saw in much greater detail. I agree with both of those. Tolkien did a masterful job, and, in that respect, so did Jackson. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/29 "2011-05-24T04:00:42Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > The paragraph describing Sauron’s reaction when he realized that the Ring had been brought to Mount Doom is something that an ancient scholar might get away with fabricating, brief as it is and based on some pretty good assumptions. I think you could plausibly argue that Frodo actually sensed Sauron’s reaction directly, via the Ring, and included it in his account of the event. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/30 "2011-05-24T04:35:39Z")
ISTR in one of his letters Tolkien said that Sauron was actually worshipped as a god by the orcs and his other evil minions, but I don’t think that really comes across in LOTR. Feared, yes, and certainly quickly obeyed when under his scrutiny or that of the Nazgul, but not really worshipped. ---
**Author:** ![SunSandSuffering](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@SunSandSuffering](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunSandSuffering)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/31 "2011-05-25T12:32:44Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Interesting that he refers to the monster as a “bear”, there-- it calls to mind a Shakespeare scene I saw once. One of ol’ Will’s more problematic (and infamous) stage directions is “Exit, pursued by a bear” in _The Winter’s Tale_. When the local troupe performed it, rather than putting someone in a bear suit to chase Antigonus off the stage, they just played sound effects of a bear roaring, and had the actor look up in horror at the obviously very large and very frightening (but unseen) grizzly. It worked quite well. I once saw an interview with Sam Raimi of Evil Dead fame, he said something like “you can’t show the audience anything worse that they can imagine - so we show them, show them , show them”. Basically meaning that he deliberately went over the top with his movies such that you imagined something really totally mega come the end. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/32 "2011-05-25T12:41:47Z")
And, if I’m not mistaken, the Evil Dead movies are viewed as much as comedy as thriller, aren’t they? As I said earlier, one person’s terror is another person’s belly-laugh. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/33 "2011-05-25T14:21:02Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > … > > The alternative is to see him as something less than monolithic, powerful and evil, as we see that he’s got to take crap from Orc Generals who can’t get their shit straight, mouthy ring-wraiths and uncooperative Haradrim. Whoa, bad idea: Samwise: “Governor Sauron… I should have expected to find you holding Gollum’s leash. I recognized your foul stench…” Sauron: “Charming to the last. You don’t know how hard I found it, signing the order to terminate your life.” Samwise: “I’m surprised that you had the courage to take the responsibility yourself.” ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/34 "2011-05-25T14:54:47Z")
> [@digs](#): > > Whoa, bad idea: > > Samwise: “Governor Sauron… I should have expected to find you holding Gollum’s leash. I recognized your foul stench…” > Sauron: “Charming to the last. You don’t know how hard I found it, signing the order to terminate your life.” > Samwise: “I’m surprised that you had the courage to take the responsibility yourself.” I had more in mind: General Glob: My Lord, the attack on Minas Tirith was a not successful. Sauron: Unfortunate. ZAP. General Zop, congratulations on your promotion. I hope you produce better results. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/35 "2011-05-25T15:08:42Z")
Admiral Saruman: Don’t try to frighten us with your sorcerous ways, Lord Sauron. Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen ring, or given you enough clairvoyance to find those hobbits… \* [Sauron raises a mailed hand in a pinching motion and Saruman starts choking] \* Sauron: \*\*\*I find your lack of faith… disturbing. \*\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/36 "2011-05-25T17:04:16Z")
“The dragon is always larger in the mind than in the eye.” Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/37 "2011-05-26T06:51:30Z")
Am I the only one who thinks “Eye of Sauron” every time he goes to the [Cheesecake Factory](http://cdn.newsday.com/polopoly_fs/1.2492686.1290621277!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/display_600/image.jpg)? ---
**Author:** ![SunSandSuffering](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@SunSandSuffering](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunSandSuffering)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/38 "2011-05-26T08:46:06Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > And, if I’m not mistaken, the Evil Dead movies are viewed as much as comedy as thriller, aren’t they? As I said earlier, one person’s terror is another person’s belly-laugh. Sorry for the derail… You’re right of course, they do have “darkly” funny moments but the gore is amazingly over the top especially Evil Dead 1 (well it was in 1981 when it came out). I just said “of Evil Dead fame” to identify the director, I think he uses this technique in just about all his films eg. the over-the-top stunts in Spider Man for example to give you an extra high expectation of what the characters are capable of. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/39 "2011-05-26T08:51:52Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Did Sauron make a better run at being evil than Morgoth? > > I am reading “The Children of Hurin”. It was said that the tale of Turin was 6000 years before the War of the Ring. According to this webpage ( [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline\_of\_Arda](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Arda) ) Morgoth only lasted 5590 years before being cast into the void. 🙂 wasn’t morgoth imprisoned for three ages after his duel with tulkas? ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/40 "2011-05-26T08:56:49Z")
I don’t think we ever directly “see” an H.P. Lovecraft villian either, do we? Maybe kind of the same technique. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938.md?page=3)