# Is Sauron's absence from the pages of LotR a good thing or a bad one? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 23, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938 "2011-05-23T19:17:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/61 "2011-05-26T19:49:25Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > A typo for yonic. Huh. Never heard of that before, either: [Urban Dictionary: yonic](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=yonic) ---
**Author:** ![Humble\_Servant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/47e85d/32.png) [@Humble\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humble_Servant)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/62 "2011-05-26T20:48:23Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Sauron isn’t actually Tolkien’s depiction of Satan-- That would be Morgoth, the Old Enemy, who was once Sauron’s boss. I’m not sure that Satan’s second-in-command is ever explicitly named in Judeo-Christian lore, but whoever that would be, that’s Sauron. Not biblical, but Milton in Paradise Lost says it is Beelzebub: He soon discerns, and weltring by his side One next himself in power, and next in crime, Long after known in PALESTINE, and nam’d BEELZEBUB. To whom th’ Arch-Enemy, And thence in Heav’n call’d Satan, with bold words Breaking the horrid silence thus began. > [@](#): > > But his blog, “Sauron’s Blog”, kinda makes him look like Peter Pan’s Captain Hook. You say that like it’s a bad thing. And I, for one, would like to know Sauron’s motivations. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/63 "2011-05-26T20:51:51Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Now that’s roughly analogous to Pippen or Gollum describing what they had seen of Sauron. In “The Dunwitch Horror” the horror is _literally_ unseen for almost all of the story. But Pippen and Gollum never really saw much of Sauron, as I recall, and they don’t provide very detailed descriptions of him anyway. “The Dunwich Horror” gives two pretty detailed descriptions of the main monsters - don’t forget the detailed description of Wilbur Whateley’s corpse after he’s killed by the dogs guarding the Miskatonic library. “Pickman’s Model” also gives a pretty clear description of the monster: “It was a colossal and nameless blasphemy with glaring red eyes, and it held in bony claws a thing that had been a man, gnawing at the head as a child nibbles at a stick of candy. Its position was a kind of crouch, and as one looked one felt that at any moment it might drop its present prey and seek a juicier morsel. But damn it all, it wasn’t even the fiendish subject that made it such an immortal fountain-head of all panic—not that, nor the dog face with its pointed ears, bloodshot eyes, flat nose, and drooling lips. It wasn’t the scaly claws nor the mould-caked body nor the half-hooved feet—none of these, though any one of them might well have driven an excitable man to madness.” Granted, the reader (and the narrator) never “sees” the monster directly, just a picture of it, but the imagery is very distinct nonetheless. He also gives a very clinical description of the dead Elder Thing found in “At the Mountains of Madness,” and even has a go at describing a malevolent color that doesn’t exist in our spectrum, in “The Colour Out of Space.” “The Haunter in the Dark” is about the only major story of his I can think of off the top of my head where the monster isn’t described much at all, beyond possessing a “three-lobed burning eye,” which is a pretty close parallel to Sauron (finally bringing this post back on topic), but for the most part, Lovecraft wasn’t much of a practitioner of the “don’t show the monster” school of writing. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/64 "2011-05-26T23:16:10Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I think Satan makes more appearances in the bible (Genesis/snake, Book of Job, Tempter of Jesus, Book of Revelations) than Sauron makes in Lord of the Rings. Well, arguably the snake is not Satan, the thing in the book of Revelations is not Satan - both allegories and symbols. Definitively perhaps in Job that is Satan (but mostly God), and a little less definitively in Jesus’ account. That’s four different stories about 4 different cultural and situational entities… not all the same thing. And I suppose Sauron is another piecemeal Satan, metaphorically. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/65 "2011-05-26T23:20:53Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > Well, arguably the snake is not Satan, the thing in the book of Revelations is not Satan - both allegories and symbols. Definitively perhaps in Job that is Satan (but mostly God), and a little less definitively in Jesus’ account. That’s four different stories about 4 different cultural and situational entities… not all the same thing. And I suppose Sauron is another piecemeal Satan, metaphorically. God’s betting partner in Job is definitely Satan; he is not, however, the Devil, or at least he does not seem to be an implacable enemy of the Almighty. He _works_ for God. He is clearly among the lieutenants reporting on the status of things on Earth to Yahweh. Nobody says anything unusual when he gives his report with the rest. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/66 "2011-05-26T23:44:56Z")
One more time I want to flog “Letters From The Earth” by Mark Twain as the best Satan stuff I have ever read or seen. Much better than Milton. Piss your pants funny. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/67 "2011-05-27T02:08:23Z")
Satan (Jason Sudeikis) makes periodic appearances on SNL’s “Weekend Update” these days, commenting on current events, and is almost always funny. ---
**Author:** ![Prox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/da6949/32.png) [@Prox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prox)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/68 "2011-05-27T06:31:10Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Bear in mind too that JRRT’s conceit is to present LOTR as an historical work, and history can only be based on sources that are extant. Everything that happens is something that witnesses by the Hobbit characters or by someone they would have been able to interview later (mainly Gimli and Legolas). Also, a fox. I think _Lord of the Rings_ is stronger with Sauron be off stage. Reading it, I never felt like I needed to see what was going on in Mordor. It was pretty clear the orcs and the Nazgul took their orders from Mordor. In fact, I don’t think it’s really that common in literature to see the enemy plotting. That seems more like a Hollywood convention that anything. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938/69 "2011-05-30T21:16:07Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I WAS DISTRACTED BY WORK! > > I swear, I never had to put up with nitpicking like this when I kept remote-controlled explosive charges implanted at the base of everyone’s amygdalas. Oh, is that what that was? Thanks for the loss of emotional connection to my former name, Rhymer, geez. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-saurons-absence-from-the-pages-of-lotr-a-good-thing-or-a-bad-one/582938.md?page=3)