# Is Scott Brown judging Elizabeth Warren solely on the color of her skin? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 26, 2012, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858 "2012-09-26T05:12:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/61 "2012-09-26T17:43:52Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Protip: when you have to type things like “accused” herself, you’ve lost the argument. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Protip: when you have to preface your comment by ‘protip’, it’s just a half-assed opinion. This is becoming ridiculous. Let’s get back on topic, please. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/62 "2012-09-26T17:53:13Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > This often caused some eye-rolling among the other tribes but, ultimately, if the Cherokee nation wants to say someone 1/32nd or 1/64th or whatever counts as “Cherokee”, that’s their call and I don’t see who has reason to say that person doesn’t really count. My great-great grandfather, William P. Ross was \*chief \*of the Cherokee shortly after the relocation even though he was only 1/16th Cherokee by blood. His uncle, John Ross (my great-great-great-great uncle) led the tribe during the relocation and he was only 1/8th Cherokee by blood. Considering the Cherokee’s long history of intermarriage with Europeans and the long history of the offspring of those intermarriages playing a prominent role in tribal business, it would be bizarre to suddenly insist on a level of blood purity that has no basis in historical fact. My grandmother (born Marjorie Ross in 1900) lived in Tahlequah her entire life and was very active in tribal business despite only being 1/32 by blood. My father (1/64) was a member of the tribe and participated in elections even though the tribe wasn’t a central part of his life the way it was for my grandmother. I look about as Indian as Elizabeth Warren does, but if I wanted to I could be on the rolls. I haven’t registered because I don’t live in Oklahoma anymore and I haven’t participated in tribal life in any meaningful way since I was a kid. It would feel weird. However, I suspect I probably checked a few “Native American” boxes on forms when I was in my teens and 20’s. I’m proud of that part of my ancestry and I’m not going to pretend that it doesn’t exist just because I don’t look like a stereotypical Indian. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/63 "2012-09-26T17:56:35Z")
I do want someone to explain this to me… generally on SDMB, if someone demands that someone else prove a negative statement, there’s a fair stampede of people pointing out that this is a logical impossibility. I don’t understand why this topic is different. It’s been baldly stated and ignored several times on the thread… Brown is asserting what’s obvious to everyone… there’s no proof Warren is any sort of Native American, but everyone’s pretending as if it’s on him to prove a negative, a claim that Warren never even offered proof of. So if Warren says she graduated cum laude from Hogwarts, or she ran a 2-hour marathon but the dog ate the homework, we’re all supposed to just shug our shoulders and say “oh, we all have our family stories”, and demand that skeptics are responsible for proving conclusively that Hogwarts actually is not an accredited university, or she never ran a marathon? How do you actually PROVE that? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/64 "2012-09-26T17:59:07Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > If anyone is allowed to claim Cherokee heritage that waters down the legitimate heritage that the other tribes have meticulously been maintaining. > > The result of this is having scores of Cherokee applicants with questionable or non existent claims to their heritage applying to Universities and for Government contracts and Casino licenses. This might prevent someone who is a real Lakota who was raised in [Pine Ridge Reservation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Ridge_Indian_Reservation) from getting those benefits. Perhaps, although what she describes sounded more like “Pfftt… there goes another blonde ‘Cherokee princess’” than concern over the number of casino licenses. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/65 "2012-09-26T17:59:52Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Actually I’m not making a point here, you’re making the point for me. Let’s back up and look at what you’ve said. > > Warren “accused” herself of having Native American heritage. Others have asserted it isn’t true, but since Warren never offered any proof of her claim, there’s no way the claim can be proven. So it’s her responsibility to prove what she said. > > So you’re saying that Warren’s claim… which, like mine, is based on an old family story… should be ignored? Yes we should all ignore it, as it has no relevance to who would be a better Senator. Guess who isn’t ignoring it though, Scott Brown, Debaser, Magellen01 and you. So why don’t you guys just let it go? Your cross examining style reminds me of the public defender from My Cousin Vinny by the way. An accusation is “you’re a liar” or “you’re a child molester”. One does not “accuse” oneself of one’s identity. That doesn’t even make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/66 "2012-09-26T18:00:45Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Brown is asserting what’s obvious to everyone… there’s no proof Warren is any sort of Native American That’s not what he’s saying. Compare there’s statements: “There is no proof Elizabeth Warren is a Native American.” “Elizabeth Warren is lying when she says she is a Native American.” ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/67 "2012-09-26T18:17:43Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s not what he’s saying. Compare there’s statements: > > “There is no proof Elizabeth Warren is a Native American.” > “Elizabeth Warren is lying when she says she is a Native American.” You’re parsing this to the point of absurdity. But, since you are, has Brown actually said either of those two quotes? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/68 "2012-09-26T18:21:14Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s not what he’s saying. Compare there’s statements: > > “There is no proof Elizabeth Warren is a Native American.” > “Elizabeth Warren is lying when she says she is a Native American.” Alright, so maybe Brown is overreaching if he calls her a liar. Maybe his supporters are kind of being dicks about it. Nobody knows what someone intends when they make a misstatement. But she made a claim about herself, a claim that she apparently cannot and will not prove. And she stands to benefit from it… I don’t think it’s controversial to say there are many professional, educational, and political advantages in declaring oneself a minority. So, she’s claiming some identity that works in her favor, but she’s never going to offer proof of it. As a liberal sympathizer (which I am), if a male conservative pulled a stunt like this, I wouldn’t excuse it for a minute. I find it really surprising that no other liberals are struggling with this enough to say “Well, maybe she’s not entirely honest, but Scott Brown is an asshole, so QED.” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/69 "2012-09-26T18:23:50Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > You’re parsing this to the point of absurdity. I’m not the one doing the parsing. I was responding to **HMS Irruncible** , who changed Brown’s comment (that Warren is not a Native American and has not been truthful about the matter) to the much more mild statement that Brown is merely “asserting … there’s no proof Warren is any sort of Native American.” > [@](#): > > But, since you are, has Brown actually said either of those two quotes? I didn’t say either one was a Brown quote. I was comparing two different claims. One is that there is no proof Warren is right, and the other is that she’s lying. In the OP Brown is quoted as saying Warren is _not_ a Native American and he pretty much does call her a liar. It’s not reasonable to parse that as ‘Brown is just saying there’s no proof.’ ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/70 "2012-09-26T18:24:15Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I love that the entire crowd in that video breaks out into a “Yankee’s Suck” chant. You really can’t get more than a dozen Massholes into a group without that occurring, regardless of any other circumstances. What is perfectly obvious in that video are the “tomahawk chop” gesture and some rather stupid cartoon-like “war hoops”. I’m not particularly upset as someone of vaguely Cherokee descent, I’m offended by the stupid. But by no stretch of a fertile imagination do I hear "Yankees Suck"anywhere. And the _Daily Caller_? As a cite? Really and truly, you think the _Daily Caller_ is a cite? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/71 "2012-09-26T18:25:04Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > As to Harvard, of course they are circling the wagons. Phrasing! On topic: Warren was told she was of a certain heritage. Brown is saying she is lying, having no evidence of this, other than her white skin. Brown is the bad-guy here. If you can’t see that, you might be too invested in the partisan issues to evaluate this correctly. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/72 "2012-09-26T18:29:36Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > False. I have asserted nothing. Can you point out my positive assertion in this thread? You might want to look up the word “sarcasm”. Oh, almost forgot: :rolleyes:! > [@Airbeck](#): > > And stuff your roll eyes please. Who else on this board has almost a 1:1 ratio of posts to rolleyes? If you feel you need to roll your eyes with almost every post, that says more about you than anyone that you’re responding to. Stuff these: :rolleyes:? Nah. But, of course you’re wrong here. Perhaps even lying, and I should ask you to substantiate your bullshit claim. Or maybe you were using the rhetorical device of hyperbole. Hmmm. > [@Airbeck](#): > > If you are having a hard time understanding this situation, then try to think about this message board and how we do things. If a poster calls another poster a liar here, who needs to cite that claim? Does the burden fall on the accused or the accuser? > > Evidently it is even simpler than you seem to think. I understand it just fine. But let me make it easier for you to grasp. If Brown just out of the blue called her a liar, I’d agree that the burden would fall to him to substantiate it. But the _original_ claim here was made by Warren. She claimed to be of Native American ancestry. Brown has called her on that, pointing out that she could simply take a blood test and put and end to the debate. That will prove whether or not her claim is true. If it isn’t, that means she’s wrong. And _possibly_ lying. Something that would then fall to Brown to substantiate. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/73 "2012-09-26T18:30:24Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > But she made a claim about herself, a claim that she apparently cannot and will not prove. Has she refused to prove it? I haven’t seen that. I’ve seen that she hasn’t proved it (and it may not be true; false family lore isn’t unusual), but not a refusal to provide evidence. > [@](#): > > And she stands to benefit from it… The argument is that maybe she benefited from it when Harvard hired her 20 years ago. Nobody thinks it’s going to help her get to the Senate. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/74 "2012-09-26T18:34:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > But by no stretch of a fertile imagination do I hear "Yankees Suck"anywhere. Really? It’s clear as a bell. The entire crowd seems to be chanting it, both those with Warren signs and the tomahawk choppers. Are you watching the same video we linked to in this thread? > [@](#): > > And the _Daily Caller_? As a cite? Really and truly, you think the _Daily Caller_ is a cite? Yes, I do. I also cited liberal sources earlier in the thread. I’m not cherry picking information from only one biased source. Do you dispute any of the facts stated in the Daily Caller story? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/75 "2012-09-26T18:36:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I didn’t say either one was a Brown quote. I was comparing two different claims. One is that there is no proof Warren is right, and the other is that she’s lying. In the OP Brown is quoted as saying Warren is _not_ a Native American and he pretty much does call her a liar. It’s not reasonable to parse that as ‘Brown is just saying there’s no proof.’ Meh. The difference between them is so thin as to require a microscope. Claiming it without proof **is** lying, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/76 "2012-09-26T18:38:32Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Yes, I do. I also cited liberal sources earlier in the thread. I’m not cherry picking information from only one biased source. Do you dispute any of the facts stated in the Daily Caller story? Oh, just ignore it. It’s a little game they play. “You mean you’re not citing HuffPo? Media Matters? The Southern Poverty Law Center? The NY Times? [:D] And you expect us to give that information some level of credence greater than zero? Ha!!!” ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/77 "2012-09-26T18:40:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Has she refused to prove it? I haven’t seen that. I’ve seen that she hasn’t proved it (and it may not be true; false family lore isn’t unusual), but not a refusal to provide evidence. Getting into semantics here, but my understanding is that her entire response to this consists of ‘back off’ and she expresses no sense of obligation to prove it. So maybe not an explicitly stated _je refuse_, but is there any sense that there’s paperwork coming through any day now? > [@](#): > > The argument is that maybe she benefited from it when Harvard hired her 20 years ago. Nobody thinks it’s going to help her get to the Senate. Whether she benefited or not, in the past and in the present, she stood to benefit from it, she had to know that, and she had no proof of it. Which, OK. What 10-year-old white kid who wanted to feel a little special did not at some point suggest maybe their grandmother was an Indian princess, or latch onto a grandparent’s story of the same? I did, I’ll admit. Even on my college application I paused over that question but thought “nah, better not.” As an adult I understand how this claim undermines not only affirmative action but dilutes the preservation of actual tribal identity. But Warren is apparently taking this story to the grave. I find that concerning in terms of integrity. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/78 "2012-09-26T18:40:56Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Has she refused to prove it? I haven’t seen that. I’ve seen that she hasn’t proved it (and it may not be true; false family lore isn’t unusual), but not a refusal to provide evidence. Brown claimed during the debate that she refuses to release her personnel records from Harvard, which would prove it. Warren didn’t deny this, so I think it’s safe to assume it’s true. She points to the statements of those that made the hiring decision. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/79 "2012-09-26T18:41:33Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Meh. The difference between them is so thin as to require a microscope. > > Claiming it without proof **is** lying, IMHO. You go too far here. As George Costanza pointed out, “It’s not a lie if you believe it to be true”. It is possible that Warren heard these stories, believed them, and proceeded on that basis. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/80 "2012-09-26T18:47:09Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You might want to look up the word “sarcasm”. > > Oh, almost forgot: :rolleyes:! Gee, posting something just to get a rise out of fellow posters. What’s the word for that type of poster again? I know there’s a term for that sort of thing … Anyway, sarcasm or not it was a bullshit point, so if that’s what you want to hide behind, so be it. > [@magellan01](#): > > Stuff these: :rolleyes:? Nah. But, of course you’re wrong here. Perhaps even lying, and I should ask you to substantiate your bullshit claim. Or maybe you were using the rhetorical device of hyperbole. Hmmm. How do you think these constant roll eyes smileys make you look to the board here? What is it that you think you’re accomplishing here with that besides making everyone think that you’re dismissive and condescending to anyone you disagree with? > [@magellan01](#): > > I understand it just fine. But let me make it easier for you to grasp. If Brown just out of the blue called her a liar, I’d agree that the burden would fall to him to substantiate it. But the _original_ claim here was made by Warren. She claimed to be of Native American ancestry. Brown has called her on that, pointing out that she could simply take a blood test and put and end to the debate. That will prove whether or not her claim is true. If it isn’t, that means she’s wrong. And _possibly_ lying. Something that would then fall to Brown to substantiate. Warren was told by her family that this is part of her heritage. Have you fact checked everything your grandparents have ever told you about your family history? Did you rigorously cross examine anyone in your family that has ever tried to tell you anything about your heritage? Brown is calling her a liar because based on her appearance she couldn’t possibly have any native american blood. And you’re on his side? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858.md?page=5)