# Is Scott Brown judging Elizabeth Warren solely on the color of her skin? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 26, 2012, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858 "2012-09-26T05:12:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/81 "2012-09-26T18:48:20Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You go too far here. As George Costanza pointed out, “It’s not a lie if you believe it to be true”. It is possible that Warren heard these stories, believed them, and proceeded on that basis. I might agree with that if not for the stakes. When you apply for college and look at checking those boxes, everyone knows what’s at stake. If you check off a box, you will be given preference and potentially exclude someone who really is a minority. Warren took action to put her name on that directory, which is used by Universities to find minority hires. She should have been damn certain of her claim, and been able to prove it. This isn’t just making interesting conversation at a cocktail party. Because of that I think it raises to the level of a lie to make the claim without proof, even if there is some family lore she heard. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/82 "2012-09-26T18:49:07Z")
Its certainly clear from Mr Brown’s photo spread for _Cosmo_ that he has nothing to hide. Well, not much to hide, at any rate… ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/83 "2012-09-26T18:51:11Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Really? It’s clear as a bell. The entire crowd seems to be chanting it, both those with Warren signs and the tomahawk choppers. I heard “Cherokees suck”, not “Yankees suck”. There are too many syllables for the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/84 "2012-09-26T18:56:47Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Claiming it without proof **is** lying, IMHO. > [@magellan01](#): > > You go too far here. As George Costanza pointed out, “It’s not a lie if you believe it to be true”. It is possible that Warren heard these stories, believed them, and proceeded on that basis. I agree with **magellan01** here, and the notion that anything you can’t prove is a lie is very silly. She says that’s the family story and even if it’s not a true story I think that’s a simpler explanation. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > So maybe not an explicitly stated _je refuse_, but is there any sense that there’s paperwork coming through any day now? Not as far as I know. From Warren’s perspective there probably isn’t much to be gained in doing more work on this story. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/85 "2012-09-26T18:57:34Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But, of course you’re wrong here. Perhaps even lying > [@Airbeck](#): > > Gee, posting something just to get a rise out of fellow posters. What’s the word for that type of poster again? I know there’s a term for that sort of thing … Knock it off, both of you. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/86 "2012-09-26T18:58:54Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I heard “Cherokees suck”, not “Yankees suck”. There are too many syllables for the latter. I just listened again. It’s very clear. Thirteen seconds in someone yells “Yankees Suck!” and then the crowd picks it up and chants it about eight times. On second viewing the Brown supporters don’t join in the chant and are doing the Native American mockery the whole time. It actually looks like the crowd is trying to drown them out by chanting “Warren” and for a little bit just switched over to “Yankees Suck” to change things up a bit. But, it’s definitely not Cherokees suck. The word starts with a Y and has two syllables and is clearly “Yankees”. It’s not surprising. Quite literally, it’s likely in any gathering of people in MA that “Yankees Suck” will spontaneously start up. You guys are looking for offense so hard you see it everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/87 "2012-09-26T18:59:35Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Knock it off, both of you. No problem, my apologies for the tangent. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/88 "2012-09-26T19:01:00Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Meh. The difference between them is so thin as to require a microscope. > > Claiming it without proof **is** lying, IMHO. It depends on the circumstances. For a long time, based on family legends, I told people my own ancestry was Scots-Irish and Cherokee. Some further poking around showed that the supposed Cherokee ancestry was much likelier to be Swedish ancestry. Yes, that’s weird. I asked an Eastern-Band Cherokee bigwig about it a few years ago: why are there so many descendants of Cherokee princesses? He had a really interesting answer. Scots-Irish folks are patrilineal. Cherokee are matrilineal. When the Scots-Irish settled in the early US, they came down from Pennsylvania, and a lot of them settled in Western NC, in Cherokee country. They were mostly men. A lot of them took Cherokee wives, figuring they’d assimilate the women into their own culture; the Cherokee women took Scots-Irish husbands, figuring they’d assimilate the menfolk into their own culture. So, lots of intermarriage. When the Trail of Tears happened, a lot of those families escaped by claiming they were white, not Cherokee, based on the husband’s name. Thus a lot of white-identified families have a Cherokee woman as an ancestor. As for “princess”? I can’t source this, but I remember reading that in the 18th and 19th century, the term “princess” was a super-common term of affection used by husbands for their wives. It’s very possible that family members found letters written by granddad to grandma and misinterpreted the “princess” to be an actual title of their Cherokee grandma, not understanding it was like claiming their grandma was a Cherokee Sweetheart. So. Should Warren have made the claim? Probably not, and I can see why the Cherokee might be annoyed (then again, ever since the tribe voted to expel the descendants of tribe-members’ slaves, I kind of stopped caring about what they think about their membership). However, suggesting that her mistake rises to the level of significance is a desperate move. There’s no evidence that it affected anything in her life, or that she intended for it to affect her career. And more importantly, there’s no evidence that she shouldn’t have been hired: her work at Harvard was, by all accounts, superlative. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/89 "2012-09-26T19:01:29Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I agree with **magellan01** here, and the notion that anything you can’t prove is a lie is very silly. Fair enough. I’d agree with you if this were just an off the cuff remark by her. But because this is a formal, documented list of “minorities” that she went out of her way to sign up on I think it crosses the line. She should have known she needed proof to make such a claim. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/90 "2012-09-26T19:04:04Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > …On second viewing the Brown supporters don’t join in the chant and are doing the Native American mockery the whole time… What a relief! Racist slurs are one thing, but mocking an American baseball team! Way over the line, no doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/91 "2012-09-26T19:04:57Z")
And she met whatever standard of proof the list required so either she’s legit or the issue lies with how the list determines eligibility. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/92 "2012-09-26T19:07:49Z")
**magellan01** , a word of unsolicited advice: Don’t respond to any of **Airbeck’s** posts. It’s not worth it. If you engage him you’ll end up accumulating warnings and ultimately potential banning. -Debaser, conservative poster on the SDMB since 2001 without as much as a single mod warning. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/93 "2012-09-26T19:08:31Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > But because this is a formal, documented list of “minorities” that she went out of her way to sign up on I think it crosses the line. She should have known she needed proof to make such a claim. Ideally there should be some level of proof involved in getting on a list like this and perhaps Warren should’ve thought to check into the story herself. In the real world, though, I think people probably take it for granted that their families are telling the truth about stuff like this. It wasn’t a legend about her great-great-grandparents, it was about her own parents. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/94 "2012-09-26T19:10:44Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Gee, posting something just to get a rise out of fellow posters. What’s the word for that type of poster again? I know there’s a term for that sort of thing … I didn’t post anything to “just get a rise” out of anyone. But perhaps you’d like to straighten your spine and make a direct accusation? > [@Airbeck](#): > > Anyway, sarcasm or not it was a bullshit point, so if that’s what you want to hide behind, so be it. Interesting. You call it something to “hide behind”. I call it a fact. > [@Airbeck](#): > > How do you think these constant roll eyes smileys make you look to the board here? What is it that you think you’re accomplishing here with that besides making everyone think that you’re dismissive and condescending to anyone you disagree with? You’ve not been paying attention. They’re not for everyone, one has to earn them. As you have. In fact, reviewing the comments I’ve responded to thus far in this post alone, here you go: :rolleyes: > [@Airbeck](#): > > Warren was told by her family that this is part of her heritage. Have you fact checked everything your grandparents have ever told you about your family history? Did you rigorously cross examine anyone in your family that has ever tried to tell you anything about your heritage? No. But I probably would have checked things more thoroughly if I was going to claim to be something that would give me some benefits not everyone gets. Especially if at first blush it _might look like I was lying_ or gaming the system. And as I’ve pointed out here are two different issues, two different claims. One is Brown’s accusation of lying. The other—the original one—is Warren’s claim of being of Native American ancestry. She needs to substantiate that claim. > [@Airbeck](#): > > And you’re on his side? At this point, where the burden falls to her? Absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/95 "2012-09-26T19:16:41Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > On second viewing the Brown supporters don’t join in the chant and are doing the Native American mockery the whole time. Not mere Brown supporters. [Brown _staff members_ :rolleyes:.](http://bostonglobe.com/metro/2012/09/25/gop-staffers-mocked-warren-with-chants-chops) > [@](#): > > In the video, filmed by a Democratic tracker Saturday outside a Brown event at the Eire Pub in Dorchester, the Brown staff members can be heard whooping and be seen making tomahawk motions amid a crowd of boisterous supporters of both candidates. The state Democratic Party identified the staff as Brad Garnett, who works for the Massachusetts Republican Party, and Jack Richard, a constituent services lawyer in Brown’s Senate office. Brown’s campaign neither confirmed nor denied the identity of those in the video. Or maybe they just thought they were at a Florida State game. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/96 "2012-09-26T19:41:25Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > **magellan01** , a word of unsolicited advice: Don’t respond to any of **Airbeck’s** posts. It’s not worth it. If you engage him you’ll end up accumulating warnings and ultimately potential banning. > > -Debaser, conservative poster on the SDMB since 2001 without as much as a single mod warning. Directly calling me out huh? Care to show me some examples of where you’re getting this idea about me from? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/97 "2012-09-26T19:43:51Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > **magellan01** , a word of unsolicited advice: Don’t respond to any of **Airbeck’s** posts. It’s not worth it. If you engage him you’ll end up accumulating warnings and ultimately potential banning. > > -Debaser, conservative poster on the SDMB since 2001 without as much as a single mod warning. > [@Airbeck](#): > > Directly calling me out huh? > > Care to show me some examples of where you’re getting this idea about me from? No. If you have a problem with each other, take it to the Pit. (And the Pit would have been a better forum for your comment, **Debaser**.) ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/98 "2012-09-26T19:46:01Z")
I know _one_ thing that Elizabeth Warren isn’t. A Republican. And that ought to be good enough for _anybody_. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/99 "2012-09-26T19:52:18Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And the Pit would have been a better forum for your comment, **Debaser**.) Understood. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858/100 "2012-09-26T19:54:28Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I know _one_ thing that Elizabeth Warren isn’t. > > A Republican. And that ought to be good enough for _anybody_. You’d think it would be in MA, where registered Democrats outnumber Republicans four to one. But Brown has been good for the state. He’s bipartisan and hands on. He’s got a good chance to win. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-scott-brown-judging-elizabeth-warren-solely-on-the-color-of-her-skin/635858.md?page=6)