# Is secession still worth opposing with armed force today? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 23, 2015, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-still-worth-opposing-with-armed-force-today/715773 "2015-03-23T14:33:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-still-worth-opposing-with-armed-force-today/715773/41 "2015-03-23T22:10:44Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > A country that allows succession is not a country. Slavery was a cause worth opposing in the 1860s, but so was succession itself: Once you have the precedent of secession, you’re in an absolute anarchy, where life is nasty, brutish, and short. There doesn’t have to be anarchy. I’m in favor of the right to secede, but it would have to be a sober, careful, slow process. It would only be anarchy if you allowed any group to secede at any time on any whim. Anyway, if enough people want to secede, then may you’re right - maybe it’s NOT a country. And why keep a non-real country going just for the heck of it? The Czechs and the Slovaks apparently didn’t really believe in Czechoslovakia and they’re doing okay now without it. Maybe the Flemish and the Walloons would be happier going the same route. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-still-worth-opposing-with-armed-force-today/715773/42 "2015-03-23T22:22:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Succession is part of the American dream, as father passes his business to his sons. Secession, not so much. 😃 I totally hate spell checker when it ‘helps’ me by deciding I really meant ‘succession’ instead of ‘secession’ in a thread with ‘secession’ in the thread title. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-still-worth-opposing-with-armed-force-today/715773/43 "2015-03-23T22:39:10Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I totally hate spell checker when it ‘helps’ me by deciding I really meant ‘succession’ instead of ‘secession’ in a thread with ‘secession’ in the thread title. :smack: I know. It screws up so many of my posts, and absolutely won’t allow me to post certain made-up words. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-still-worth-opposing-with-armed-force-today/715773/44 "2015-03-23T22:55:54Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Was secession worth fighting with force in the 1860s? No. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-still-worth-opposing-with-armed-force-today/715773/45 "2015-03-30T17:29:26Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Probably because outside of a few nutty secession movements there is no real support for a state or states leaving the Union, so the public doesn’t give it much thought. If there ever was then you’d see the public take an interest in the subject. > > The thing is, if, say, Texas decided to leave the Union you’d have to consider what to do about the large percentage of Americans that didn’t want to leave the Union, at the very least. Assuming you could ever get enough people in Texas to agree it would be a good idea you’d still have a huge number of folks who don’t want to not be Americans anymore and to live in a new sovereign state outside of the Union. You’d also need to consider what would or wouldn’t be US assets in Texas and a host of other messy things. > > So, I think that it’s unlikely in the extreme that even Texas would secede from the Union, but if it tried then opposing it through military force might or might not be ‘worth’ it, depending on how they went about doing it and whether all the mess could be resolved. If a minority of Texans (and I’m simply using Texas as an example since there is a small, nutty secessionist movement there) decided to seize control and secede then that should certainly be opposed through military force. If a super-majority of Texans decided to secede then, depending on how the details could be worked out that might not call for military force to reconcile a split of some type. I think a war is fairly likely under circumstances like these. It would start as what amounts to a civil war within the state - those who want to secede vs those who don’t. The US government would ultimately intercede, if necessary in favor of the latter group. ---
**Author:** ![Weeping\_Wyvern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@Weeping\_Wyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weeping_Wyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-still-worth-opposing-with-armed-force-today/715773/46 "2015-03-30T22:11:52Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Of course everyone is assuming that it will be secession by an entire state. What if it’s just part of a state? What if it’s just one county, or just one town? Counties and towns have no inherent authority. Local governments are created by their respective state governments, and can be overruled or abolished by the whims thereof. State governments, however, were not created by the federal government. Quite the contrary: the federal government was itself created by a voluntary union of preëxisting state governments. So it’s far easier to make a legal case for a state secession. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2015, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-still-worth-opposing-with-armed-force-today/715773/47 "2015-03-31T05:27:41Z")
All you people talking of secession are ignoring the real world of … economics. Most of the suggested seceding states would promptly go bankrupt – they are mostly ‘welfare states’ – they get much more in Federal money than they pay in taxes. If the old slave states left, the rest of the USA would get an immediate economic bump, because we wouldn’t have to support the South any longer. Within a couple of years, Texas would be talking about seceding from the New Confederacy because they are the only viable economy, and they would be tired of supporting the rest of them. [If it wasn’t for the moral evil of slavery, we would have been much better off just letting them go.] IF Hawaii left, they would take a big hit economically from the loss of all the US military (unless they rented them back to the USA), the decreased tourism from other parts of the USA, increased import duties on their remaining pineapple/sugar crops, and the loss of Federal aid. They’d be in a Depression real soon. The west coast (California, Oregon, Washington) is the one that probably could make it as a separate nation. They have a large & varied economy, and don’t depend much on Federal money – they pay in more taxes than they get back. They’d probably do pretty well. (Of course, if they really piss us off, we could just dam up the Colorado river and cut off their water, and watch them turn back into a desert.) ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2015, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-still-worth-opposing-with-armed-force-today/715773/48 "2015-03-31T06:51:26Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > No. So I guess you don’t mind the fact that a handful of arrogant oligarchs behaved like spoiled brats after losing a free and fair election to establish a state whose primary purpose was to preserve, perpetuate, and expand the institution of human slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2015, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-still-worth-opposing-with-armed-force-today/715773/49 "2015-03-31T06:59:48Z")
> [@Weeping\_Wyvern](#): > > Counties and towns have no inherent authority. Local governments are created by their respective state governments, and can be overruled or abolished by the whims thereof. State governments, however, were not created by the federal government. Quite the contrary: the federal government was itself created by a voluntary union of preëxisting state governments. So it’s far easier to make a legal case for a state secession. That might apply to the original 13 colonies, but not any of the subsequent states. They didn’t found the club - they were permitted to join it. Besides, the vast majority of the state were founded by the federal government in the first place. After all, it was the federal government that made the Louisiana Purchase and conquered the northern section of Mexico. Why shouldn’t it be the rightful owner of all that territory? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2015, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-still-worth-opposing-with-armed-force-today/715773/50 "2015-03-31T13:54:48Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > All you people talking of secession are ignoring the real world of … economics. … Dude, don’t fight the hypothetical. 😉 We got us a squadron of f-16s here in WI just beggin’ to bomb _somebody_! ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2015, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-still-worth-opposing-with-armed-force-today/715773/51 "2015-03-31T14:28:14Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > All you people talking of secession are ignoring the real world of … economics. And yet the 13 colonies seceded from Britain. So have numerous other countries in history. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-still-worth-opposing-with-armed-force-today/715773/52 "2015-03-31T17:36:57Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > And yet the 13 colonies seceded from Britain. So have numerous other countries in history. The position of the 13 colonies to Britain is not particularly comparable to the position of any state to Washington. There is no serious secessionist movement in the US, which preceded most secessions and break-ups of countries in history. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2015, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-still-worth-opposing-with-armed-force-today/715773/53 "2015-03-31T19:27:16Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > I’m with those who don’t see what was so terrible about secession in the 1860s. _Slavery_ is something worth fighting and dying over. Preserving the union is not. This. If today’s South wants to go, let it go (though you’re not taking fucking Florida!) Mass self-determination is as it should be. The South of yesteryear was taking millions of slaves with it; they sure as hell didn’t get a vote. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-still-worth-opposing-with-armed-force-today/715773/54 "2015-03-31T20:30:28Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Dude, don’t fight the hypothetical. 😉 > > We got us a squadron of f-16s here in WI just beggin’ to bomb _somebody_! I’d suggest your Governor’s Mansion. (But F-16’s are Fighters, not Bombers, aren’t they?) ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-still-worth-opposing-with-armed-force-today/715773/55 "2015-03-31T20:41:54Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > I’d suggest your Governor’s Mansion. > > (But F-16’s are Fighters, not Bombers, aren’t they?) They are multi-role aircraft. They can carry a substantial bomb load, but most are not equipped with the gear to deliver smart bombs. On the plus side, dropping dumb bombs on the Governor’s Mansion seems fitting, if redundant. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-still-worth-opposing-with-armed-force-today/715773/56 "2015-04-01T17:33:27Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > OK, good point. But I think many anti-secessionists would flee Texas if they felt Texan independence was imminent, which would further reduce opposition (within Texas) to secession. If any red state(s) got serious about secession, I’d move there and advocate for it. I doubt the [US.gov](http://US.gov) would go to war to stop it if it were supported by a majority of the population, but if they did, I’d fight back. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-still-worth-opposing-with-armed-force-today/715773/57 "2015-04-01T17:41:34Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > OK, good point. But I think many anti-secessionists would flee Texas if they felt Texan independence was imminent, which would further reduce opposition (within Texas) to secession. I’m reasonably sure there are far more people who couldn’t afford to drop everything and flee, particuarly home owners who wouldn’t want to abandon their homes. And in the big cities there are likely people who can’t even afford a car. At a guess, they would be more likely to think it could all be resolved peacefully, and decide to wait it out. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-still-worth-opposing-with-armed-force-today/715773/58 "2015-04-01T19:06:17Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > If any red state(s) got serious about secession, I’d move there and advocate for it. I doubt the [US.gov](http://US.gov) would go to war to stop it if it were supported by a majority of the population, but if they did, I’d fight back. That sounds a little like treason. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-still-worth-opposing-with-armed-force-today/715773/59 "2015-04-01T19:37:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That sounds a little like treason. I don’t see any states that are even remotely serious about secession, so what we’re talking about is fantasyland. Sort of like if I said, “if our next president turns out to be an illegal alien and refuses to step down when impeached and removed from office, I’d fight him too”. Never going to happen. ETA: I am a bit curious though, do Canada or the UK have treason laws? And do you think the Scots or Quebecians(?) that supported secession were treasonous? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-still-worth-opposing-with-armed-force-today/715773/60 "2015-04-01T19:46:47Z")
It’s not treason to advocate for desired separatism (and the Scottish referendum was specifically allowed by the [Edinborough Agreement](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Agreement_%282012%29). Fighting back because the government won’t let you leave is treason, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-still-worth-opposing-with-armed-force-today/715773.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-still-worth-opposing-with-armed-force-today/715773.md?page=4)