# Is Secession Treason? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 24, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-treason/511405 "2009-09-24T18:45:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-treason/511405/1 "2009-09-24T18:45:22Z")
On its face, Secession certainly seems to be as treasonous as it gets. In legal circles, however, allegiance to a foreign power is necessary for treason. What say you all? Were Washington and Jeff Davis traitors, or do they get a pass? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-treason/511405/2 "2009-09-24T18:55:44Z")
Washington - no. Davis - yes. “…none dare call it treason.” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-treason/511405/3 "2009-09-24T19:03:30Z")
“Treason is merely a question of dates.” - Talleyrand ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-treason/511405/4 "2009-09-24T19:07:16Z")
> [@stuthehistoryguy](#): > > On its face, Secession certainly seems to be as treasonous as it gets. Only if you don’t get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-treason/511405/5 "2009-09-24T19:07:56Z")
No. If I surrender my passport and citizenship, I am not a traitor. If I act against my nation while a citizen, I am a traitor. Washington, et al were traitors against the Crown. They won, so we love them. However, I do not have issue if the Brits wish to consider them traitors. Davis, et al tried to surrender their passports. They voted, and agreed to leave the Union en masse. That does not make them traitors in my opinion. The fact that the Constitution had no way to leave the Union makes it a legal debate, but not one of Treason in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-treason/511405/6 "2009-09-24T19:25:23Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > No. If I surrender my passport and citizenship, I am not a traitor. If I act against my nation while a citizen, I am a traitor. That standard is merely an anachronism. The concept of passport was not really relevant for Washington, and citizenship (versus loyalty to the sovereign) as not really clear at that time either. > [@](#): > > Washington, et al were traitors against the Crown. They won, so we love them. However, I do not have issue if the Brits wish to consider them traitors. Well, it is not really an “issue” - quite clearly from a Crown perspective they betrayed the Crown. However, they won. Ergo… > [@](#): > > Davis, et al tried to surrender their passports. That is meaningless. They were trying to separate the from their sovereign, not merely by themselves but taking territory with them. That is clearly treason relative to the US federal government. They were, relative to the US Federal government, traitors. [quoteThe fact that the Constitution had no way to leave the Union makes it a legal debate, but not one of Treason in my opinion.[/QUOTE] Treason is a legal judgement. You’re confusing issues. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-treason/511405/7 "2009-09-24T19:28:00Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Davis, et al tried to surrender their passports. They voted, and agreed to leave the Union en masse. That does not make them traitors in my opinion. The fact that the Constitution had no way to leave the Union makes it a legal debate, but not one of Treason in my opinion. If that’s all they did, you might debate whether what they did was treason. However, they went from that to armed rebellion against the United States. If they had succeeded (as Washington did), any argument about whether it was treason would be moot, but they did not succeed. The only reason why Jefferson Davis and his co-conspirators were not prosecuted for treason was that the federal government thought it better to seek some kind of reconciliation. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-treason/511405/8 "2009-09-24T20:14:31Z")
> [@stuthehistoryguy](#): > > On its face, Secession certainly seems to be as treasonous as it gets. In legal circles, however, allegiance to a foreign power is necessary for treason. What say you all? Were Washington and Jeff Davis traitors, or do they get a pass? I don’t know if George Washington swore a voluntary oath of allegiance to the Crown. If he had, then traitor. Jeff Davis (and Stonewall Jackson, and Jeb Stuart, and Robert E. Lee etc) all swore oaths of allegiance to the United States without compulsion. Their breach of said oaths made them traitors. Now being a traitor isn’t always bad, mind you. That kind of depends on the reason for the act of treason. I would imagine under my definition Von Stauffenberg counts as a traitor. Yet what he did was a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-treason/511405/9 "2009-09-24T20:19:48Z")
Davis et. al. had a right to leave the Union. They did not have the right to take Union land with them. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-treason/511405/10 "2009-09-24T20:31:10Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Davis et. al. had a right to leave the Union. They did not have the right to take Union land with them. We are a union of States. If a State legislature votes to leave, they should have that right. Why is joining the Union a one way path? There might need to be a reckoning of local assets, but the State should still be allowed to secede IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-treason/511405/11 "2009-09-24T20:34:52Z")
Whether or not secession is legal depends on the means. If a state and the federal government each pass laws separating that state from the union, then it is a legal secession. The First Amendment gives the people the right to advocate such laws. A person taking up arms against the United States is either treason and/or insurrection, depending on their citizenship status. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-treason/511405/12 "2009-09-24T20:40:44Z")
> [@stuthehistoryguy](#): > > In legal circles, however, allegiance to a foreign power is necessary for treason. Not true at all. From the United States Constitution: > [@](#): > > Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. Note the “or”. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-treason/511405/13 "2009-09-24T21:01:26Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > We are a union of States. If a State legislature votes to leave, they should have that right. Why is joining the Union a one way path? > > There might need to be a reckoning of local assets, but the State should still be allowed to secede IMHO. That’s the crux of the matter, isn’t it? The South claimed that they were states united into a nation. The North claimed that they were a nation divided into states. I tend to side with the North: if a state can secede, why not a county? A town? An individual? That way lies chaos, IMHO. Besides, what about the Southerners who didn’t want to secede? Surely there were some who thought of themselves as U.S. citizens and were happy living in the United States of America. What right did their neighbors have to forcibly remove them from their country? That’s tyranny of the majority right there. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-treason/511405/14 "2009-09-24T21:03:47Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > We are a union of States. If a State legislature votes to leave, they should have that right. Why is joining the Union a one way path? > > There might need to be a reckoning of local assets, but the State should still be allowed to secede IMHO. It’s not a one way path, you just cannot unilaterally withdraw. If the country agrees to let a state secede, a state can leave. The reason it cannot be unilateral is the same reason any contract cannot be unilaterally broken: it consists of a web of mutual promises and mutual gains. To allow one party to leave at their own whim unfairly disadvantages those who kept their word. In many ways, the united states is a mutual defense pact. In fact, if you go back and read the justifications at the time, that one was paramount. The point of such a pact is the commitment to keep the cannons pointed at the sea and not each other. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-treason/511405/15 "2009-09-24T21:10:01Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > We are a union of States. If a State legislature votes to leave, they should have that right. Why is joining the Union a one way path? If Davis were content to solve the difference of opinions on secession by political means, that’d be one thing. But the whole “going to war with the United States” strategy puts it squarely in the realm of treason. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-treason/511405/16 "2009-09-24T21:10:09Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That’s the crux of the matter, isn’t it? The South claimed that they were states united into a nation. The North claimed that they were a nation divided into states. I tend to side with the North: if a state can secede, why not a county? A town? An individual? That way lies chaos, IMHO. > > Besides, what about the Southerners who didn’t want to secede? Surely there were some who thought of themselves as U.S. citizens and were happy living in the United States of America. What right did their neighbors have to forcibly remove them from their country? That’s tyranny of the majority right there. We are a Union of States, however. The Constitution was passed that way. The House and Senate are organized that way. The Electoral college works that way. The Constitution itself talks about the States as separate entities. North simply said that the secession was illegal, and would not be accepted. This led to war keep the Union instead of secession to separate it. An individual can give up their citizenship, and still live in the USA (once they get their visa status cleaned up). As for secession and NOT wanted to secede, lets again look at it from the other direction. If Puerto Rico votes to join the Union, everyone living there will find themselves living in the US. If a State votes to secede, then everyone living there will find themselves no longer living in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-treason/511405/17 "2009-09-24T21:11:37Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If Davis were content to solve the difference of opinions on secession by political means, that’d be one thing. But the whole “going to war with the United States” strategy puts it squarely in the realm of treason. When did the Union give the South a legal path to secede? They could have let them go, and simply accepted the vote of their various State legislatures. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-treason/511405/18 "2009-09-24T21:14:01Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > We are a union of States. If a State legislature votes to leave, they should have that right. Why is joining the Union a one way path? > > There might need to be a reckoning of local assets, but the State should still be allowed to secede IMHO. There is no recognized legal right of secession of a State from the United States. If nothing else I think the 14th Amendment puts paid to that idea (there is a national citizenship in there, not just citizenship to the state). As such a State cannot legally sever my citizenship to the nation of the United States. Even if a majority of other citizens in the state want to secede they cannot (legally) deprive me of my citizenship. If a State wanted to secede methinks they’d need the approval of the Federal government. Presumably some legal mechanism could be found (personally I think it might take a new amendment to the constitution to pull off). ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-treason/511405/19 "2009-09-24T21:16:32Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > When did the Union give the South a legal path to secede? > > They could have let them go, and simply accepted the vote of their various State legislatures. Is this how political disputes ought to be settled? Party A: “I want to do _x._” Party B: “You’re not allowed to.” Party A: “I could argue with you; I could try to find a mutually acceptable solution; but instead, let’s just go to war!” If South Carolina believed there was a lawful right to secession in the Constitution, they could have pursued lawful means to achieve it. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-treason/511405/20 "2009-09-24T21:17:14Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > There is no recognized legal right of secession of a State from the United States. > > If nothing else I think the 14th Amendment puts paid to that idea (there is a national citizenship in there, not just citizenship to the state). As such a State cannot legally sever my citizenship to the nation of the United States. Even if a majority of other citizens in the state want to secede they cannot (legally) deprive me of my citizenship. > > If a State wanted to secede methinks they’d need the approval of the Federal government. Presumably some legal mechanism could be found (personally I think it might take a new amendment to the constitution to pull off). I agree - there is no legal path for a State to secede. Then again, if a State does vote that way, I do not consider the members to be Traitors just because the Union refuses to accept their vote. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-secession-treason/511405.md?page=2)