# Is "securing the border" even possible?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [May 21, 2010, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255 "2010-05-21T14:30:43Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2010, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/1 "2010-05-21T14:30:43Z")
So, some say the first priority of United States immigration policy should be “ **securing the border**.” Southern border, that is. _Physically preventing_ anyone from crossing the border without passing through a continuously regulated secure checkpoint. Presumably this means multiple fencing, guard stations and patrols across the whole length, some air and satellite surveillance, whatever.
Leaving aside, if possible, the matter of whether this is desirable–is it even possible? Is it actually practical to contemplate spending the resources to maintain that level of genuine security across the entire length of the border with Mexico? Would this need to be a permanent condition, or how would that work?
---
### Author:  [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/2 "2010-05-21T14:48:48Z")
As a guestimate based on the Israeli-West Bank barrier, it would cost $7 billion to fortify the border. How expensive you feel this is depends on how fast you want to get it up, and what you’re comparing it to.
---
### Author:  [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/3 "2010-05-21T15:04:18Z")
I would think there is enough advanced technology available to monitor the border without even building a fence. You’d need a way to react quick enough with enough manpower to catch, catalogue, and then deport the people you catch. Kind of a tag and release program actually.
---
### Author:  [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2010, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/4 "2010-05-21T15:11:15Z")
With 370,000 troops deployed worldwide each taking up ~3’ we could cover 1,110,000’ of the border. Since the US/Mexico border is about 10.4 million feet long we could put 10’ between each man and completely cover the border. Of course people need to sleep and take vacations so call it three shifts and put 30’ between each solder and it would be doable without spending any additional money.
Realistic of course not, but it sure is possible.
---
### Author:  [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/5 "2010-05-21T16:17:14Z")
Bahhh.
Some razor wire and a sniper every mile or two would be sufficient. Its not THAT hard.
---
### Author:  [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/6 "2010-05-21T16:28:14Z")
Physically patrolling the border is impossible, but both the camera solution and just serious enforcement of immigration law (finding illegals not necessarily at the border itself) can make a big difference in illegal immigration at the margin.
---
### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2010, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/7 "2010-05-21T16:34:05Z")
Land mines. Cheap and easy. Carpet a strip a hundred meters wide along the entire border. No one gets past them, and there will be no repeat offenders. Nothing short of that will be 100% effective.
If the OP would settle for less than 100%, how much less?
---
### Author:  [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/8 "2010-05-21T16:40:25Z")
> [@athelas](#):
>
> Physically patrolling the border is impossible, but both the camera solution and just serious enforcement of immigration law (finding illegals not necessarily at the border itself) can make a big difference in illegal immigration at the margin.
Why is that?
Take a guess at how many miles of fences, restricted area borders, and roads we have in the USA . I bet it makes 1,400 miles look like a tiny number.
---
### Author:  [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/9 "2010-05-21T18:05:03Z")
> [@billfish678](#):
>
> Why is that?
>
> Take a guess at how many miles of fences, restricted area borders, and roads we have in the USA . I bet it makes 1,400 miles look like a tiny number.
Sure. And there’s gazillions of police officers all over the country doing their jobs in their local communities. We can’t reassign them to the borders - that’s ruinously expensive - but a small nudge for them to be more vigilant about illegal immigration, and thoroughly prosecute apprehended illegals, would have a big effect.
---
### Author:  [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/10 "2010-05-21T18:38:40Z")
Aaand…all of this is beside the point.
Migrants used to come in through cities & on roads. The USA thought we could close those & secure the border. Now they come in through the desert, which was previously considered a natural barrier.
If you build a fence, they can tunnel under it.
Build a wall with a foundation 100’ deep, they can go back to crashing checkpoints.
Close all roads in & out of Mexico, they’ll swim the Gulf of Mexico.
Mine our territorial waters? They’ll find ways to forge papers, maybe go through third-party countries.
So we can, in theory, completely close all of our borders to all traffic, all trade, all tourism, both ways–abolish exit visas for Americans so no one is able to falsely “re-enter.”
We can mine the waters, forbid fishing beyond a given limit–because swimmers could latch onto them out on the open sea.
We can force Americans to carry papers everywhere, then upgrade to radioactive tattoos administered by the DHS, with long prison terms for anyone who copies the technique.
At some point our own people will be chafing under the limitations, long before it stops a single illegal.
And this is why, again? Because somebody might lose a job to an immigrant?:rolleyes:
---
### Author:  [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/11 "2010-05-21T18:43:09Z")
> [@athelas](#):
>
> Sure. And there’s gazillions of police officers all over the country doing their jobs in their local communities. We can’t reassign them to the borders - that’s ruinously expensive - but a small nudge for them to be more vigilant about illegal immigration, and thoroughly prosecute apprehended illegals, would have a big effect.
I agree with your second part.
But, my point being, if you can afford ALL those officers (and all the other expensive shit), why can’t you afford a small fraction of those(that stuff) to control the border?
In my mind, the only real question (beside the principle of maintaining/enforcing law in the first place) is does the cost to control the border cost more than it “costs” us to allow totally uncontrolled “migration”?
---
### Author:  [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2010, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/12 "2010-05-21T18:45:20Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#):
>
> At some point our own people will be chafing under the limitations, long before it stops\*\* a single illegal\*\*.
You werent doing too bad till you dropped that bomb.
---
### Author:  [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/13 "2010-05-21T19:57:27Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#):
>
> If you build a fence, they can tunnel under it.
If you’re putting up a fence it would make sense to put sensors on it so that you can tell if someone is tunneling under it or cutting through it, or even getting near it for that matter.
> [@](#):
>
> Build a wall with a foundation 100’ deep, they can go back to crashing checkpoints.
Crashing checkpoints? I’d think that would be a small subset of the total people who would cross a border.
> [@](#):
>
> Close all roads in & out of Mexico, they’ll swim the Gulf of Mexico.
Same here. Only so many people are going to risk swimming through the Gulf, or even boating. Plus, it is easier to spot such people.
Locks are designed to stop the lawful and the lazy. Not having a lock invites anyone to enter.
---
### Author:  [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/14 "2010-05-21T19:58:10Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#):
>
> And this is why, again? Because somebody might lose a job to an immigrant?:rolleyes:
Worse; someone might have to sit next to an immigrant in a restaurant, or hear Spanish being spoken in public.
---
### Author:  [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/15 "2010-05-21T19:59:24Z")
You’re missing that people are now crossing through a natural barrier that the government doesn’t find it worth it to secure. It’s a desert, friend.
They can get forged papers, or come in in container ships. In the 1980’s, they were coming in in trucks. I said you won’t stop a single migrant, & I mean it.
---
### Author:  [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/16 "2010-05-21T20:45:21Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#):
>
> I said you won’t stop a single migrant, & I mean it.
It’s funny, the person in this thread who seems to have the worst opinion of illegal immigrants is the one that’s defending them.
Illegal immigrants are not lemmings, and they’re not coming here just to spite us. Once the percieved difficulty of getting here outweighs the percieved reward for even one person who was considering the trip, your claim will be wrong.
---
### Author:  [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/17 "2010-05-21T20:51:01Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#):
>
> You’re missing that people are now crossing through a natural barrier that the government doesn’t find it worth it to secure. It’s a desert, friend.
That is the question of the thread. Can you secure it? Yes, you can. But it depends on IF you want to do it and HOW MUCH you want to spend. I wasn’t making a comment on whether it should be done.
Although, it makes sense that there is some sort of vetting process on who you allow to emigrate to your country. If you had no controls on your borders you’d not only have everyone south of your border showing up in your country, you’d have tens of millions from all over the world. The difference is that it costs many thousands of dollars more and extra logistics for them to smuggle themselves from overseas than across a desert. But, hey, if that is what you want then lobby for an open door policy and see what happens.
---
### Author:  [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/18 "2010-05-21T20:53:20Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#):
>
> You’re missing that people are now crossing through a natural barrier that the government doesn’t find it worth it to secure. It’s a desert, friend.
>
> They can get forged papers, or come in in container ships. In the 1980’s, they were coming in in trucks. I said you won’t stop a single migrant, & I mean it.
The Berlin wall stopped people. Not everyone, but many of them. A Mexican wall could do similarly, if we threw enough people and technology at it. We wouldn’t stop _everyone_, but I personally guarantee some would be stopped - all the ones shot by the machine gun towers, for example.
---
### Author:  [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)
#### Post date: [May 22, 2010, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/19 "2010-05-22T03:04:42Z")
> [@begbert2](#):
>
> We wouldn’t stop _everyone_, but I personally guarantee some would be stopped - all the ones shot by the machine gun towers, for example.
OK, let’s pretend you’re right. Is that what we want? Should the penalty for entering the country without getting on a twenty-year waiting list be summary death? I submit that that is exactly what it would take to lower the number of entrants, & I don’t think the punishment fits the crime there.
Note also that 40% of undocumented aliens entered legally & overstayed their visas. [Illegal immigration to the United States - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#Visa_overstay)
---
### Author:  [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)
#### Post date: [May 22, 2010, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/20 "2010-05-22T03:13:40Z")
To put it another way. Yes, we can secure the border, by having policies roughly as protectionist & isolationist as Albania prior to 1990. But the methods would violate principles of proportionality in sentencing, & the economic price would be higher than any putative gain from having fewer persons in the economy.
(Granted, I don’t believe any such gain exists. I don’t understand how having fewer workers & consumers is going to create three times as many jobs as the number of resident aliens removed, but clearly there’s some “commonsensical” economic analysis my college-l’arning has blinded me to.)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255.md?page=2)