# Is "securing the border" even possible? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 21, 2010, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255 "2010-05-21T14:30:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/21 "2010-05-22T03:24:07Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > The Berlin wall stopped people. Not everyone, but many of them. A Mexican wall could do similarly, if we threw enough people and technology at it. We wouldn’t stop _everyone_, but I personally guarantee some would be stopped - all the ones shot by the machine gun towers, for example. The Berlin Wall? That’s really the analogy you want to choose? ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/22 "2010-05-22T13:23:35Z")
I see the old sleight of hand in play yet again. If you’re against illegal immigration it must be because you’re a racist, not because of job, losses, drug smuggling, crime in general or the rise in beggars. I always wonder if the people who are so concerned about the rights"of foreign nationals on M.B.s are that way inclined because they 're so humanitarian or if its because their friends, relations and even themselves may be illegal immigrants? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/23 "2010-05-22T13:47:53Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > If you’re against illegal immigration it must be because you’re a racist, not because of job, losses, drug smuggling, crime in general or the rise in beggars. As a rule, yes; that’s the motivation. That’s why the focus is always on the poor brown people and not the wealthier white people that hire them; it’s about xenophobia and class. > [@Lust4Life](#): > > I always wonder if the people who are so concerned about the rights"of foreign nationals on M.B.s are that way inclined because they 're so humanitarian or if its because their friends, relations and even themselves may be illegal immigrants? :rolleyes: Yeah, right; after all it’s not like anyone with brown skin is really human, so why would we be concerned about their rights unless we were…one of THEM?! _\_ ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/24 "2010-05-22T14:00:00Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > As a rule, yes; that’s the motivation. That’s why the focus is always on the poor brown people and not the wealthier white people that hire them; it’s about xenophobia and class. So, are you saying that anyone who shows up in a country should be allowed to stay there no matter what and who they are? And that anyone who questions such a policy is automatically racist? Are the Brits racist for being concerned about all the eastern Europeans showing up at their door? The are white after all. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/25 "2010-05-22T14:09:21Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > So, are you saying that anyone who shows up in a country should be allowed to stay there no matter what and who they are? And that anyone who questions such a policy is automatically racist? No, I obviously said no such thing. But here, in America, right now - which is what we are talking about yes, it usually is racist. Which is why there’s so much concern over punishing the evil poor brown people, and not white illegal immigrants, or the richer and generally whiter people who hire illegal immigrants. We aren’t talking about what people can or can’t theoretically be motivated by; we are talking about the actual people in the actual country of America as it is today. And for that, yes, this is mostly about racism. > [@Uzi](#): > > Are the Brits racist for being concerned about all the eastern Europeans showing up at their door? The are white after all. I don’t know enough offhand to comment, but that would be xenophobia not racism specifically (which is the word I actually used in the post above, for just that reason). ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/26 "2010-05-22T14:41:01Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > If you’re against illegal immigration it must be because you’re a racist, not because of job, losses, drug smuggling, crime in general or the rise in beggars. Everyone is against illegal immigration. We only differ on what the appropriate response should be. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/27 "2010-05-22T15:41:42Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And for that, yes, this is mostly about racism. Even if it is, does that mean the border should be controlled or not? I think focusing on why people may be against a particular illegal immigrant ignores the real point that they are there without the permission of the government. Why even bring racism up? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/28 "2010-05-22T15:57:32Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > As a guestimate based on the Israeli-West Bank barrier, it would cost $7 billion to fortify the border. How expensive you feel this is depends on how fast you want to get it up, and what you’re comparing it to. As a soldier, I’ve patrolled the borders between with Lebanon and with Jordanand the fence with the West Bank, the latter as recently as six months ago. I can say with almost complete certainty that very, very few people came through the fence (although quite a few come through the gates). However, this level of success requires thousands of trained soldiers operating on a variety of levels, including mounted patrols, foot patrols, electronic fences, manned observation posts, remote-controlled obeservation posts, sonar, infra-red… in terms of money and manpower, its almost prohibatively expenses to maintain, not to mention construct. I don’t see it scceeding with a border as long as the one with Mexico without recruiting hundreds of thousands of new troops and spending billions of dollars a year to keep it working. It’s just not a viable plan. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/29 "2010-05-22T16:15:16Z")
It also requires a willingness to use deadly force against people motivated by the desire to clean toilets and pick strawberries. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/30 "2010-05-22T16:29:38Z")
I think the problem is that “securing the border” is really just treating the symptom. Illegal immigrants come across the border for two reasons: for work, and to sell drugs. Give our laws against hiring illegals some teeth, and you’ll take care of the first reason- if employers aren’t willing to risk hiring illegals, then illegals won’t come here for work. Legalize recreational drug use and you’d take care of the second reason- it wouldn’t be profitable to smuggle drugs in. Granted, there will be issues with this- it’s no perfect solution (Meth, for example- I don’t believe that meth should be legalized). But I think that throwing more money at the problem is exactly the wrong way to go. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/31 "2010-05-22T16:42:30Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Even if it is, does that mean the border should be controlled or not? I think focusing on why people may be against a particular illegal immigrant ignores the real point that they are there without the permission of the government. > Why even bring racism up? Because that’s the motivation. Fear of the Brown Peril. Nobody is worried about illegal aliens who are British or Canadian or German; just brown ones. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/32 "2010-05-22T16:45:21Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > It’s funny, the person in this thread who seems to have the worst opinion of illegal immigrants is the one that’s defending them. > > Illegal immigrants are not lemmings, and they’re not coming here just to spite us. Once the percieved difficulty of getting here outweighs the percieved reward for even one person who was considering the trip, your claim will be wrong. This is exactly right. The notion that some seem to be putting forth, that a fence must be 100% effective or it’s a waste, is nonsense. To your point, we need to make it: 1. harder to sneak in 2. reduce the likelihood of getting employment if they arrive 3. eliminate carrots like in-state tuition and any social services other than emergency medical care 4. increase the likelihood that you might be discovered to be here illegally and deported 5. I would change the 14th Amendment(?), that grants citizen status to the child of an illegal when born on our soil Do these things and the risk-reward analysis changes dramatically. And not any of the steps taken has to be 100% effective. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/33 "2010-05-22T16:50:26Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because that’s the motivation. So, without that motivation there would be no reason to control the border? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/34 "2010-05-22T16:51:09Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > 1. I would change the 14th Amendment(?), that grants citizen status to the child of an illegal when born on our soil In other words, you want to create a permanent underclass of noncitizens; of people with no nationality. I can’t see how having millions of people with no citizenship and no place to go would work out well. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/35 "2010-05-22T16:52:04Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > As a rule, yes; that’s the motivation. That’s why the focus is always on the poor brown people and not the wealthier white people that hire them; it’s about xenophobia and class. You keep spouting this in these discussions, even though many people, I for one, have explicitly stated numerous times that we must go after the employers in a serious way. Fine them heavily. Seize their assets. Close their businesses. And as I’ve said repeatedly, put them in jail. Your claim has shown to be WRONG by countless posts, yet you just keep…being you.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/36 "2010-05-22T16:53:59Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > So, without that motivation there would be no reason to control the border? Did I say that? The point is not that there’s no rational reason to control borders; it’s that those rational reasons aren’t the reason we care. We don’t get worked up over the Canadian border - because Canada is full of white English speakers. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/37 "2010-05-22T16:56:42Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > In other words, you want to create a permanent underclass of noncitizens; of people with no nationality. I can’t see how having millions of people with no citizenship and no place to go would work out well. They’d be Mexican citizens, born to the parents of Mexican citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/38 "2010-05-22T16:59:13Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You keep spouting this in these discussions, even though many people, I for one, have explicitly stated numerous times that we must go after the employers in a serious way. Fine them heavily. Seize their assets. Close their businesses. And as I’ve said repeatedly, put them in jail. Except that that won’t ever happen. This is standard in these discussions; the side defending racism tries to come up with theoretical non-racist reasons, and theoretical non-racist ways to accomplish the supposed goal of stopping illegal immigration. But that is just an attempt to pretend that the motive isn’t racism (and greed), and to pretend that the actual effect is going to be anything other than racist persecution. And I’m not at all surprised to find you defending the racist side; whether it’s racism or homophobia or religious hatred, you can be relied upon to play the apologist for them. > [@magellan01](#): > > They’d be Mexican citizens, born to the parents of Mexican citizens. And if Mexico says they aren’t? And what if their parents aren’t Mexican? Oh right - only brown illegal immigrants matter. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/39 "2010-05-22T16:59:31Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Did I say that? The point is not that there’s no rational reason to control borders; it’s that those rational reasons aren’t the reason we care. We don’t get worked up over the Canadian border - because Canada is full of white English speakers. Could the reason be that there aren’t millions of people clamoring to cross that border, as evidenced by the fact that there are not millions of Canadians here illegally? Hmmm… ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255/40 "2010-05-22T16:59:38Z")
just assimilate Mexico, then they won’t be illegal immigrants anymore. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-securing-the-border-even-possible/540255.md?page=3)