# Is self-immolation an effective means of protest? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 26, 2024, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-self-immolation-an-effective-means-of-protest/998117 "2024-02-26T19:38:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-self-immolation-an-effective-means-of-protest/998117/21 "2024-02-27T14:31:51Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > Seems like a hunger strike would be more impactful, especially if there were more people involved. Not saying it would be effective at pushing an agenda, but a hunger strike could stay in the news cycle longer and whatever message could be more widely spread Well, there have in fact been AFAICT dozens of hunger strikes by various activist groups launched in protest of the Gaza war since last November. Had you heard of any of them? Some examples: [US government employees plan to fast for Gaza](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/jan/29/government-employees-hunger-strike-gaza-crisis-biden) [Activists end 5-day hunger strike as calls for ceasefire in Gaza continue](https://prismreports.org/2023/12/07/hunger-strike-ceasefire-gaza/) [Brown University Students Are on a Hunger Strike for Palestine](https://www.thenation.com/article/activism/brown-university-hunger-strike-palestine-israel-divestment/) I certainly don’t want to encourage people to kill themselves, much less anybody else, to make a political point. But if we don’t want that, then I think it’s incumbent on us as a society to pay more attention to less extreme forms of protest. In particular, I think it’s a bit of a dirty trick (unintentional, I know) for the world to demand that oppressed groups such as the Palestinians need to confine themselves to nonviolent protest for their rights, eschewing terror attacks and other forms of violence, and then turn around and say with LSLGuy that all such protest is “useless”. If we won’t take nonviolent protest seriously, that’s kind of inviting an escalation to violence. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-self-immolation-an-effective-means-of-protest/998117/22 "2024-02-27T14:53:10Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > In particular, I think it’s a bit of a dirty trick (unintentional, I know) for the world to demand that oppressed groups such as the Palestinians need to confine themselves to nonviolent protest for their rights, eschewing terror attacks and other forms of violence, and then turn around and say with LSLGuy that all such protest is “useless”. If we won’t take nonviolent protest seriously, that’s kind of inviting an escalation to violence. I agree with this. I’ll make a slight amendment / clarification to what I meant, which may not be what I said. IMO … non-violent protest _can_ be effective. But it must be both massive and sustained. Fill the streets of the capital city for days and weeks. But what is _not_ effective is one person committing suicide such as this instant case. Nor a few wackos in a few city parks for a few days (Occupy Wall Street). The world is awash in news, and although these pinprick events were newsworthy in the sense that articles were written and pix were posted, they weren’t news-moving in the sense of altering the trajectory of the behemoth of the society they took place in. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-self-immolation-an-effective-means-of-protest/998117/23 "2024-02-27T15:09:22Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > But what is _not_ effective is one person committing suicide such as this instant case. Nor a few wackos in a few city parks for a few days (Occupy Wall Street). The world is awash in news, and although these pinprick events were newsworthy in the sense that articles were written and pix were posted, they weren’t news-moving in the sense of altering the trajectory of the behemoth of the society they took place in. Again, I think it has to come down to how you define “effective”. Did, say, the Occupy Wall Street movement actually achieve its blue-sky aspirations of reworking the whole structure of capital and labor etc. etc. etc.? Of course not. Does that mean it accomplished nothing “in the sense of altering the trajectory of the behemoth of the society”? Most analysts seem to disagree, AFAICT: [Occupy Wall Street Did More Than You Think](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/how-occupy-wall-street-reshaped-america/620064/) > [@](#): > > The movement itself has mostly disappeared. But 10 years later, its legacy is everywhere. [Wikipedia:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street#:~:text=Occupy%20Wall%20Street%20has%20been,for%20a%20%2415%20minimum%20wage) > [@](#): > > Occupy Wall Street has been credited with reintroducing a strong emphasis on income inequality into broad political discourse and, relatedly, for inspiring the fight for a $15 minimum wage. […] > > In 2021, on the 10th anniversary of Occupy Wall Street, _[The Atlantic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Atlantic)_ listed several long-term influences of the protests, including “Reinventing Activism” by encouraging “a generation to take to the streets and demand systemic reforms”, influencing the [Green New Deal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_New_Deal), influencing activism for higher minimum wages, and “shifting the window of what is deemed politically acceptable discourse and pulling the nation to the left.” ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-self-immolation-an-effective-means-of-protest/998117/24 "2024-02-27T15:40:34Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > > [@xtenkfarpl](#): > > > > If ever there was a question which has a clear answer, this has to be: no. > > > > It does not cause any actual problems for the forces being protested against, and you can only do it once. > > Really now? It depends very much on the character of the force one is protesting against. Harry Turtledove has an interesting story: ‘[https://ia601501.us.archive.org/19/items/last-article-harry-turtledove/Last%20Article%20Harry%20Turtledove.pdf](https://ia601501.us.archive.org/19/items/last-article-harry-turtledove/Last%20Article%20Harry%20Turtledove.pdf)’ ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-self-immolation-an-effective-means-of-protest/998117/25 "2024-02-27T16:20:29Z")
The Balinese have a tradition called [Puputan,](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puputan) mass suicide rather than accepting subjugation. “When the procession was a hundred paces from the Dutch force, they halted and the Raja stepped down from the palanquin and signaled a priest, who plunged his dagger into Raja’s breast. The rest of the procession began killing themselves and others. Women mockingly threw jewelry and gold coins at the troops.” And it neither delayed nor softened Dutch colonialism one bit. I watched the unblurred video of Aaron Bushnell, now removed. If someone were outside their fence with a bomb, or Molotov cocktails, or even flinging a bag of dogshit, I’d have expected the security service inside on ready alert. But this was something they preferred to follow established protocol. It was outside the embassy gate and not their jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-self-immolation-an-effective-means-of-protest/998117/26 "2024-02-27T16:37:39Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > The Balinese have a tradition called [Puputan,](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puputan) mass suicide rather than accepting subjugation. Then there were the Jewish rebels on the Masada mountain fortress who commited suicide rather than capitulate to the Romans who were about to capture the place after a long and arduous siege. Though that wasn’t exactly a protest, I guess, and didn’t have any effect on Roman colonisation. Off topic: Masada is a spectacular place, well worth a visit! But we’re getting a bit far from the OP… ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-self-immolation-an-effective-means-of-protest/998117/27 "2024-02-27T19:48:25Z")
“We are the spark that’ll light the fire that’ll burn the First Order down.” - Poe Dameron I don’t believe self-immolation is an effective means of protest. At least not in the sense that it will lead, by itself, to change. But maybe it can bring more attention to a cause and inspire others to take action? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-self-immolation-an-effective-means-of-protest/998117/28 "2024-02-27T21:18:59Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I saw the full video of this last night (with the graphic area blurred). Yeah, I took a look, too. He certainly did have a good bonfire going once he got the lighter to work. Yelling and screaming with those sorts of flames probably cooked his lungs and that might be what killed him in the end, even more than the horrific burns he must have had. A sad end. I wish he could have found another way to protest, perhaps even a more effective method that allowed him to live. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-self-immolation-an-effective-means-of-protest/998117/29 "2024-02-27T23:39:03Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Poe Dameron Not sure an inspiring quote from a fictional character in a questionable sequel carries much weight. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-self-immolation-an-effective-means-of-protest/998117/30 "2024-02-27T23:42:06Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Not sure an inspiring quote from a fictional character in a questionable sequel carries much weight. I have a weird sense of humor and that quote was the first thing that popped into my head when I heard about the immolation and the reason behind it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-self-immolation-an-effective-means-of-protest/998117/31 "2024-02-27T23:55:41Z")
Self-immolation certainly gets attention, and it leaves the sincerity of one’s beliefs beyond doubt. I’m not sure how much more any individual act of protest can accomplish. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2024, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-self-immolation-an-effective-means-of-protest/998117/32 "2024-02-28T02:16:18Z")
How effective in changing US policy do you think a suicide in Israel would have? That’s about as effective as this was. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2024, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-self-immolation-an-effective-means-of-protest/998117/33 "2024-02-28T02:53:37Z")
The difference is the perceived balance of leverage. Israel cannot dictate US policy. The US is widely perceived as being able to dictate Israeli policy. It’s certainly accurate to say the US administration can be highly influential. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2024, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-self-immolation-an-effective-means-of-protest/998117/34 "2024-02-28T15:20:18Z")
A LOT of Americans believe, with some justification, that a lot of US Mideast policy is driven by Israel’s interests to the detriment of the US’s interests. To suggest Israel has little influence is silly. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2024, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-self-immolation-an-effective-means-of-protest/998117/35 "2024-02-28T16:08:56Z")
There is influence going both ways of course. Not control. Protests in the U.S. will do nothing to change what is happening in Israel right now. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2024, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-self-immolation-an-effective-means-of-protest/998117/36 "2024-02-28T18:53:11Z")
Self-immolation gets attention, and it energizes people who already agree with you, but I don’t think is has any significant effect on your opponents. If a Trump supporter immolated himself in front of Leticia James’ house, would any Democrats change their opinions or their actions? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2024, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-self-immolation-an-effective-means-of-protest/998117/37 "2024-02-28T20:33:54Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > launched the Arab Spring in Tunisia I had immediately jumped to the same thought, and quickly followed it with a wonder about specifics of the cultures and society, the context. Within the Arab Spring context it was the spar… the seed … unleashing expressions of existing wide discontent. In Western culture it’s more an expression of mental instability. We understand hunger strikes better and _those_ are usually of little impact on general support for a cause. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2024, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-self-immolation-an-effective-means-of-protest/998117/38 "2024-02-28T20:41:09Z")
It is generally agreed that the hunger strikes of the British suffragette movement were critical to the change in voting laws. I believe they were slightly less effective, but still part of the arsenal that brought change, in the U.S. . ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2024, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-self-immolation-an-effective-means-of-protest/998117/39 "2024-02-28T20:42:35Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > Self-immolation gets attention, and it energizes people who already agree with you, but I don’t think is has any significant effect on your opponents. I don’t think it’s really intended to; the chief point is, as you noted, to call attention to your cause and galvanize fellow supporters to further action. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2024, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-self-immolation-an-effective-means-of-protest/998117/40 "2024-02-28T21:00:51Z")
And kill yourself. If you want to go out, and have strong feelings about a topic, taking yourself out in a way that gains attention is tried and true. Its part of the motivation behind mass killings. (Personally, fire seems painful, but its effecting at gaining attention and doesn’t tend to hurt anyone else). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-self-immolation-an-effective-means-of-protest/998117.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-self-immolation-an-effective-means-of-protest/998117.md?page=3)