# Is sex between a mother and daughter still incest? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 23, 2016, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-between-a-mother-and-daughter-still-incest/769546 "2016-10-23T23:10:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Tom\_Terrific](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tom_terrific/32/342_2.png) [@Tom\_Terrific](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Terrific)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2016, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-between-a-mother-and-daughter-still-incest/769546/1 "2016-10-23T23:10:00Z")
I just came across an article about a mother and daughter that were married and had an incestuous relationship. Here is the link, > **[Oklahoma mother, daughter arrested after alleged incestuous marriage](https://www.fox61.com/article/news/local/outreach/awareness-months/oklahoma-mother-daughter-arrested-after-alleged-incestuous-marriage/520-07e49ea3-faf7-4535-bb2e-56bb0401aa23)** > > DUNCAN, Okla. – A mother and daughter from Oklahoma are accused of having an incestuous marriage, according to KFOR. Patricia Spann, 43, and Misty Spann, 25, we... Sorry I don’t know how to make a decent link. This is my first new thread. Please be gentle. I understand male-female incest, but never thought of same sex sex as incest. There is no chance of children so that isn’t part of the issue. The daughter is 25 so I wouldn’t think of the undue influence. What are your thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2016, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-between-a-mother-and-daughter-still-incest/769546/2 "2016-10-23T23:12:09Z")
> [@Tom\_Terrific](#): > > I just came across an article about a mother and daughter that were married and had an incestuous relationship. Here is the link, > [Oklahoma mother, daughter arrested after alleged incestuous marriage | fox61.com](http://fox61.com/2016/09/07/oklahoma-mother-daughter-arrested-after-alleged-incestuous-marriage/) > > Sorry I don’t know how to make a decent link. This is my first new thread. Please be gentle. > > I understand male-female incest, but never thought of same sex sex as incest. There is no chance of children so that isn’t part of the issue. The daughter is 25 so I wouldn’t think of the undue influence. What are your thoughts? Good question. But why is it a crime? It’s their lives. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2016, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-between-a-mother-and-daughter-still-incest/769546/3 "2016-10-23T23:12:35Z")
That is _really_ disturbing. They dress alike. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2016, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-between-a-mother-and-daughter-still-incest/769546/4 "2016-10-23T23:24:08Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > They dress alike. More precisely, they wear Superman shirts when they do things that get them arrested. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2016, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-between-a-mother-and-daughter-still-incest/769546/5 "2016-10-23T23:27:43Z")
> [@Tom\_Terrific](#): > > What are your thoughts? My thoughts are _“Of course it’s incest. Any sex between a parent and child is incest, regardless of the gender.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Terrific](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tom_terrific/32/342_2.png) [@Tom\_Terrific](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Terrific)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2016, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-between-a-mother-and-daughter-still-incest/769546/6 "2016-10-23T23:28:20Z")
This wasn’t the mother’s first time around either, she had married one of her sons and that marriage was annulled. There are some really strange people out there. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2016, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-between-a-mother-and-daughter-still-incest/769546/7 "2016-10-23T23:30:46Z")
I would call it incest; sex between parent and child no matter what the genders or ages crosses the line in my mind. Should it be illegal/prosecuted or just against custom may be a slightly different debate. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2016, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-between-a-mother-and-daughter-still-incest/769546/8 "2016-10-23T23:31:46Z")
> [@Tom\_Terrific](#): > > This wasn’t the mother’s first time around either, she had married one of her sons and that marriage was annulled. There are some really strange people out there. Or they are just from (insert the name of the state of your choice here). ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2016, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-between-a-mother-and-daughter-still-incest/769546/9 "2016-10-23T23:52:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Is sex between a mother and daughter still incest? When you ask any question about sex, the answer is always “yes”. At least for somebody, at some time. ---
**Author:** ![HeXen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@HeXen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeXen)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2016, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-between-a-mother-and-daughter-still-incest/769546/10 "2016-10-23T23:53:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Court records show this isn’t the first time Patricia has married one of her own children. > > She also married one of her sons in 2008 but court records show that marriage was Yeah, those kids never had a normal relationship with their mother. Also I read a couple of the “related stories” from that link…wtf? ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2016, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-between-a-mother-and-daughter-still-incest/769546/11 "2016-10-24T00:06:23Z")
> [@HeXen](#): > > Yeah, those kids never had a normal relationship with their mother. Also I read a couple of the “related stories” from that link…wtf? The world is indeed a “wtf” place. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2016, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-between-a-mother-and-daughter-still-incest/769546/12 "2016-10-24T00:45:56Z")
Serious question: I think we call all agree that it’s _ewwwww_. But should it be illegal? If so, why? mmm ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2016, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-between-a-mother-and-daughter-still-incest/769546/13 "2016-10-24T00:57:52Z")
It’s incest, by definition. Anyone who doesn’t think so is probably the same kind of person who thinks lesbians don’t have real sex, because sex requires a penis. However, IMO, it shouldn’t be illegal. If both people are adults, they should be able to do what they want, short of things like cannibalism. Familial sex is proscribed by the Torah, and someone who want to be an observant Jew should refrain\*, I suppose, but it shouldn’t be against secular law. A lot of things are illegal for religious reasons, though, and shouldn’t be. \*Don’t get me started on the passage about men-on-men sex, which is clearly meant to address a specific ritual practiced by neighboring countries, if you read it in Hebrew. The authors of the Torah never conceived of relationships between men. Women-women sex is NOT proscribed. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2016, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-between-a-mother-and-daughter-still-incest/769546/14 "2016-10-24T01:00:20Z")
Oh yeah: FWIW: Her **MOTHER**? _Ewwwwwwww!_ I don’t even like my mother to do my laundry when I visit her. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2016, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-between-a-mother-and-daughter-still-incest/769546/15 "2016-10-24T01:06:54Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Serious question: I think we call all agree that it’s _ewwwww_. > > But should it be illegal? > > If so, why? > mmm Yes, for the same reason that sex between a teacher and pupil will get the teacher sacked. Undue influence, power differential, the inability of the kid to have a normal life. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2016, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-between-a-mother-and-daughter-still-incest/769546/16 "2016-10-24T01:07:42Z")
Slight hijack, but it is from the OP’s article > [@](#): > > Patricia told officials she didn’t think she was breaking any laws by marrying Misty because her name is no longer listed on her daughter’s birth certificate. How or why would someone’s name be removed from a birth certificate? I could see someone losing parental rights but they are still the biological parent; what circumstances would get someone’s name removed from the birth certificate? ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2016, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-between-a-mother-and-daughter-still-incest/769546/17 "2016-10-24T01:12:01Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > But should it be illegal? > > If so, why? My gut reaction is no as long as they are both adults but --------- I have a hard time convincing myself that, at least in some cases, enough control/manipulation/abuse won’t start while the child is a minor to let it be clearly legal. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2016, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-between-a-mother-and-daughter-still-incest/769546/18 "2016-10-24T01:17:28Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > Yes, for the same reason that sex between a teacher and pupil will get the teacher sacked. Undue influence, power differential, the inability of the kid to have a normal life. But assuming the pupil has graduated and is no longer in the school system, at least most places I know of, that sex or a marriage is absolutely legal. Heck, I can name 4 teachers still in the classrooms who married former students. So to complicate my last reply (and in my own mind): does it make a difference if the child has been out of the house and on their own for a period of time? ---
**Author:** ![mixdenny](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mixdenny/32/2962_2.png) [@mixdenny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mixdenny)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2016, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-between-a-mother-and-daughter-still-incest/769546/19 "2016-10-24T02:24:35Z")
> [@HeXen](#): > > Also I read a couple of the “related stories” from that link…wtf? The related story about the Connecticut man traveling to have sex with a woman and her two young daughters mentioned: “…was arrested last week in Greeley, Colorado after a joint investigation by HSI, the U.S. attorney’s office and Immigration and Customs Enforcement.” [Ledyard man arrested in Colorado after traveling to have sex with mom, 2 minor daughters | fox61.com](http://fox61.com/2016/02/09/ledyard-man-arrested-in-colorado-after-traveling-to-have-sex-with-mom-2-minor-daughters)" Why is Homeland Security, and Immigration and Customs Enforcement involved in this case? The accused may be despicable but that doesn’t seem to involve national security or immigration. Dennis ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2016, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-between-a-mother-and-daughter-still-incest/769546/20 "2016-10-24T02:45:40Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > Slight hijack, but it is from the OP’s article > > How or why would someone’s name be removed from a birth certificate? I could see someone losing parental rights but they are still the biological parent; what circumstances would get someone’s name removed from the birth certificate? Losing custody doesn’t do it, and neither does termination of parental rights, but in an adoption, the records are amended and a new certificate is issued. The grandparents who raised her must have also adopted her. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-between-a-mother-and-daughter-still-incest/769546.md?page=2)