# Is sex instinctual in humans? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 20, 2003, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-instinctual-in-humans/183215 "2003-06-20T17:42:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sinungaling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Sinungaling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinungaling)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-instinctual-in-humans/183215/41 "2003-06-21T20:09:56Z")
People are forgetting the fact that children raised together often aren’t attracted to each other. They don’t have to be related, they just have to grow up together. I’m not sure how much of that would apply to this kind of scenario. Let’s say the kids are 7 or so, which I believe is the youngest a feral child can be abandoned and still have a remote chance of survival. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-instinctual-in-humans/183215/42 "2003-06-21T20:18:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sinungaling \* > \*\*People are forgetting the fact that children raised together often aren’t attracted to each other. They don’t have to be related, they just have to grow up together. I’m not sure how much of that would apply to this kind of scenario. Let’s say the kids are 7 or so, which I believe is the youngest a feral child can be abandoned and still have a remote chance of survival. \*\* This comes out of studies of kibutz children from, IIRC, the 60s. It was found that even children not related to each other tend not to form romantic relationships if they were raised together. But in that case, the kids had alternatives for their sexual partners. Our Blue Lagoon couple, assuming they could survive, would have some natural “incest” taboo, but with no other sexual partners available, it’s likely that taboo would break down. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-instinctual-in-humans/183215/43 "2003-06-21T20:45:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chorpler \* > \*\*I once read the highly suspicious “fact” that humans only need to be three years old to survive on their own, but I can’t remember where it was – anybody else heard this before? \*\* I doubt it was this article. [http://www.theonion.com/onion3119/stupidbabies.html](http://www.theonion.com/onion3119/stupidbabies.html) ---
**Author:** ![godzillatemple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@godzillatemple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godzillatemple)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-instinctual-in-humans/183215/44 "2003-06-21T21:32:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BellaVoce \* > \*\* I think that they would see critters on their island doing the hungabunga. \*\* Why would you assume that? How often have _you_ seen critters doing the hungabunga? I saw a couple of cats going at it once when I was young, and the way the female cat was yowling I was convinced the male was trying to kill her. I didn’t have a clue what was really going on until somebody told me. I have no doubt, BTW, that sexual _attraction_ is instinctive. I just wonder whether the actual act itself is in humans. Barry ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-instinctual-in-humans/183215/45 "2003-06-21T23:40:35Z")
> [@](#): > > This comes out of studies of kibutz children from, IIRC, the 60s. It was found that even children not related to each other tend not to form romantic relationships if they were raised together. Key word being **tend**. Lots of kibbutz children have always married each other. They just do so at much lower rates than those that marry outsiders. ---
**Author:** ![Sinungaling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Sinungaling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinungaling)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-instinctual-in-humans/183215/46 "2003-06-22T00:36:41Z")
Actually, I learned about this from the traditional practice of minor marriage in China, where children are betrothed to each other, with the bride adopted into her future husband’s family in infancy. The girl is raised in the household and later married to the family’s son. The downside is that there’s no dowry and it’s less prestigious; the upside is that there’s a guaranteed wife for the male heir. Anyway, partners in minor marriages found each other sexually unattractive, and minor marriages produced fewer children, were more likely to end in separation or divorce, and were more likely to have infidelity. And about the kibbutzim: an Israeli sociologist collected data on 2 769 marriages in kibbutzim, and he found that only 14 of them were between members of the same peer group. In all of them, one partner joined the peer group after six years old, just to bring this back to the original point. So I guess it _is_ still possible for Brooke and whatsisname to shack up, since the only way they would survive anyway is if they were at least 6 years old. All this data came from my textbook, _How Humans Evolved_ by Robert Boyd and Joan B. Silk. **Blake** , I’m guessing those kibbutz marriages must be between children from different peer groups in the kibbutz. ---
**Author:** ![stoyel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/54ee81/32.png) [@stoyel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stoyel)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-instinctual-in-humans/183215/47 "2003-06-22T00:45:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by godzillatemple \* > \*\*How often have _you_ seen critters doing the hungabunga? \*\* Not counting on PBS? Cats, dogs, rabbits, squirrels, several species of parrots, and slow lorises (small primates). We had a lot of pets when I was little. (This was in Duri, where neutering wasn’t really an option. In the 'States we keep our pets infertile.) And let’s not even _talk_ about the time we went by the Monkey House at the zoo in springtime… I think it’s been established that the kids aren’t growing up in what you’d call an urban setting. Seeing critters going at it is inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-instinctual-in-humans/183215/48 "2003-06-22T04:09:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chorpler \* > \*\*I once read the highly suspicious “fact” that humans only need to be three years old to survive on their own, but I can’t remember where it was – anybody else heard this before? \*\* Check out [www.feralchildren.com](http://www.feralchildren.com). Apparently some, 3-5 y.o. mannaged to survive, IIRC, either on their own or with the support of social animals (wolves, apes…) ---
**Author:** ![Ariadne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/71c47a/32.png) [@Ariadne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ariadne)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-instinctual-in-humans/183215/49 "2003-06-22T05:11:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MLS \* > \*\*I cannot begin to know where to look for a cite, but I swear I read somewhere that chimps or some other high-order primates raised in captivity without older role models had to be shown videos of others of their own species mating in order to know exactly what to do. \*\* I remember reading something similar. Here’s the closest I can find so far, but I know there’s a much more detailed article or book about it somewhere: [http://users.rcn.com/napier.interport/cwm/experim.html](http://users.rcn.com/napier.interport/cwm/experim.html) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-instinctual-in-humans/183215/50 "2003-06-22T15:18:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blake \* > \*\*Key word being **tend**. Lots of kibbutz children have always married each other. They just do so at much lower rates than those that marry outsiders. \*\* Of course, the key word is “tend”, and the lower rate is what the whole point is about. Our “incest taboo” doesn’t even stop **all** brothers and sisters from having sex (Appalachian jokes notwithstanding). ---
**Author:** ![Sinungaling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Sinungaling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinungaling)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-instinctual-in-humans/183215/51 "2003-06-22T15:50:19Z")
Well, I was studying my anthropology notes when I came across something that seemed relevant. Apparently, sex isn’t quite instinctual to animals, or at least to rhesus monkeys. The urge is there, but the knowledge isn’t. To wit: > [@](#): > > Although monkeys raised in semi-isolation in the ordinary laboratory environment may be highly responsive to social stimuli, their development is retarded in many respects by the lack of social experience . . . > > [T]ests were conducted in which both feral and socially deprived male monkeys were given an opportunity to interact with feral females . . . > > One of the most striking deficiencies observed in the socially deprived subjects was in social relations . . . _Socially deprived males were evidently sexually aroused, but their mating attempts were poorly integrated and body orientation toward the partner was frequently inappropriate._ These deficiencies were apparent whether the animals were tested with naive or sophisticated females . . . Thus far, all efforts to establish effective sexual performance in socially deprived rhesus monkeys have been unsuccessful. From “The Social Development of Monkeys and Apes,” in _Primate Behaviour: Field Studies of Monkeys and Apes_ (1965), emphasis added. I wish I could show you the picture, it shows the correct position (mounting from behind) and the position that the socially deprived males try (mounting from the side). Later, it says: > [@](#): > > [T]he male monkey that has not achieved the adult [sexual] pattern by adolescence is unlikely to to do so later, whereas the chimpanzee is capable of such learning. This contrast may be related in part to . . . differences in behavioral flexibility. So it’s still possible humans could learn how to do it, since humans by far have the most behavioural flexibility of any of the primates. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-instinctual-in-humans/183215/52 "2003-06-22T16:26:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kanicbird \* > \*\*I would say yes they would figure it out because of: > 1 - seeing it done by animals, this might get them going earlier then their own sex drive just out of cureosity. > 2 - They would find out that they liked being close to each other, would discover spooning and the pleasures of masturbation and eventually put it together. \*\* Those two comments are very typical of what others have written here. I agree with them, but only up to a point. Consider the role of the hymen in all this. Even if our shipwrecked couple decided to bring their experiment to the next level, in which Tab A was to be inserted into Slot B, the odds are pretty good that the owner of Slot B would put an end to that experiment pretty early on. I can hear objections being raised, that women who have a good relationship with their first man do **not** insist that he cease and desist. But I think that this is because they have been **taught** to accept it as a temporary inconvenience. Today’s people understand that the pain of intercourse will eventually go away and it will become more pleasurable over time. But our stranded couple has not been taught that. They might experiment with intercourse, but the female is likely to respond with something like, “So much for **that** idea! Why did we think that would work?” The male will probably answers, “I disgree! That was great! What’d we have to stop for?”, but in the end I bet he’ll consent to simply continuing the mutual masturbation. (There was a thread a while back about whether or not [other species](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=109521) have hymens. My point is that even if they do, the instinct for sex overrides the pain in those species, but intelligent humans would not allow the instinct to ovveride the pain.) ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-instinctual-in-humans/183215/53 "2003-06-22T16:45:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*Not even a chimp could survive alone at age 3. Humans don’t begin to develop fully rational thinking process until about the age of 12. That’s our key to survival, and without it you’re toast. \*\* The author’s only “evidence” for his claim that people can survive on their own at age three was presented in the very next sentence, which was, as best I can recall, “And if you don’t believe that children can survive on their own when they’re that young, look at war-torn and third-world countries, where orphans often have to survive on their own from young ages; the youngest ones to do so are no younger than age three.” But I always thought that maybe this was missing a crucial point, which is that, even if there _were_ legions of three-year-old orphans roaming the war-torn poverty-stricken countries, there are still other (older) people around, many of whom would probably be doing whatever they could to help orphaned children survive, i.e. giving them scraps of food, blankets or clothing, temporary shelter, etc. Which, I would say, is not quite actually surviving “on their own.” ---
**Author:** ![Sinungaling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Sinungaling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinungaling)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-instinctual-in-humans/183215/54 "2003-06-22T17:21:29Z")
Younger street kids also have older street urchins to look out for them. ---
**Author:** ![stoyel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/54ee81/32.png) [@stoyel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stoyel)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-instinctual-in-humans/183215/55 "2003-06-23T02:46:18Z")
Arguing that the hymen would put an end to the experimentation assumes that this is entirely consensual. Sure, it’d be nice to think that sex is “naturally” consensual, but that’s not a fair assumption. The teenage boy in this scenario, if he’s capable of overpowering the girl, may well do so – not out of spite, but perhaps as a result of getting carried away. “Ow, stop it” is probably not going to be a huge deterrent unless it’s backed up with some pretty violent flailing. If the discomfort is mild enough, she might decide it’s worth putting up with (or worth trying again) to keep the guy happy, rather than risk losing the benefits of having a partner for foraging, hunting, warmth, etc. Many girls are born without any hymen, or a very thin one, and it’s common for it to be broken accidentally. They probably won’t be doing much bicycle riding on the deserted island, but tree-climbing is a given. Remember also that masturbation isn’t very intuitive for girls. She may not _expect_ pleasure from it. Anyway, penetration isn’t absolutely necessary for conception; if they get as far as ‘bumping uglies,’ then sooner or later, she’s very likely to get pregnant. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-instinctual-in-humans/183215/56 "2003-06-23T03:05:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Remember also that masturbation isn’t very intuitive for girls. That would seem to run counter to all the evidence I’ve ever seen. ---
**Author:** ![godzillatemple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@godzillatemple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godzillatemple)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-instinctual-in-humans/183215/57 "2003-06-23T17:23:04Z")
Well, I’m still not sold on the idea that the people in the hypothetical situation I described would be able to learn about sex by observing animals “getting it on,” as it were. That’s really beside the point, however. My original scenario is one where the man and women do not have “anybody to tell or show them” the mechanics involved, and I that would include the local fauna. Remember – the question is whether knowledge of _how_ to have sex (“putting tab A into slot B”) is instinctual in humans. I have vivid memories of my father having “the talk” with me at an early age. Such an early age, in fact, that the entire notion of sticking my penis inside a woman’s vagina completely and utterly grossed me out. Not only had the thought never occurred to me, it was rather disgusting. It was only after I hit puberty that my father’s words started taking on some semblance of meaning to me, eventually becoming a source of excitement and anticipation. Had he never told me about it, however (and assuming nobody else did, either), I honestly don’t know if I would have thought of it on my own. Barry ---
**Author:** ![Tusculan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Tusculan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tusculan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-instinctual-in-humans/183215/58 "2003-06-23T17:41:01Z")
Actually I forgot to mention that I once heard a doctor (physician? MD?) tell an anecdote. He said he once, when interning in a rural environment, had to help a girl give birth, while neither she nor her husband knew that she was in fact pregnant. She only thought she had a hell of a belly-ache. Turns out the parents were mentally challenged (retarded?) and didn’t know where the babies came from. When their parents found out that the girl was pregnant, they ordered them to get married. Though it wasn’t part of the anecdote, it seems likely the couple figured out how to do the deed by themselves. To bolster this up: I read an article in a Dutch newspaper a couple of months ago about the problem with mentally challenged persons: they still want to have sex, but can’t use proper contraception and can’t very well take care of the babies either. It is possible that these days the care centres do give them a proper speech about contraception and all that, but I seriously doubt whether they used to do that earlier, and still these kids find out how to fit part A in part B. Even though this is anecdotal and not completely conclusive evidence, I find support in this for my opinion that it is to a large extent instinctual (which of course is not to say that being told about it may help a lot). Sorry for all the question marks, today I’m not very good with euphemisms. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-instinctual-in-humans/183215/59 "2003-06-23T18:49:10Z")
There are a number of ways that people learn “how to do sex.” Most children these days learn in some sort of sex education class, or in biology, or in some other class. Others learn by reading scientific/educational books, or pornography, or some of the more explicit fiction. Others learn by watching animals or people go at it “live.” Many a virgin has learned the facts from his or her first lover. Even the most sheltered child, I think, has heard somewhere that something fits into something, and cooperative experimentation will soon show what and where. Most parents, I think, haven’t got a clue where their kids learned about sex. Given all this, and given the very good point that **Sinungaling** makes, I’d guess that there’s virtually no evidence that sex in humans is instinctive. ---
**Author:** ![Spiff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiff/32/9852_2.png) [@Spiff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiff)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-instinctual-in-humans/183215/60 "2003-06-23T19:30:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by clairobscur \* > **The case of the feral kids could give some clues, but unfortunately they’re extremely rare** You meant to say fortunately, right? 😃 Anyway, in all the assembly manuals I’ve ever seen, Tab A always goes into Slot A. Are you saying that it’s perfectly acceptable to put Tab A into Slot B? Wait 'till I tell **Mrs. Spiff** about this! :eek: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-instinctual-in-humans/183215.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sex-instinctual-in-humans/183215.md?page=4)