# Is Sexism such a bad thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 13, 2001, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexism-such-a-bad-thing/87260 "2001-10-13T16:11:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2001, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexism-such-a-bad-thing/87260/21 "2001-10-13T22:33:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grenadier1974 \* > \*\*Uhmmm, this seems a bit silly but lets break it down to reproductive organs. Shall we say the male and the female of the human animal? \*\* So, which am I, dearest? Male or female? How do you know? On the OP: It seems to me that it is your responsibility to prove that there is a difference rather than anyone else’s responsiblity to prove that there is not. All that aside, I suspect that there is a difference: I suspect that women are more morally aware than men, and men dislike them because of it. I suspect the reason why you have such a poor opinion of women is that women, generally, have a better intuitive understanding of other people and can spot someone who should not be trusted more readily than men can. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2001, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexism-such-a-bad-thing/87260/22 "2001-10-13T22:39:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grenadier1974 \* > \*\*Uhmmm, this seems a bit silly but lets break it down to reproductive organs. Shall we say the male and the female of the human animal? \*\* So, which am I, dearest? Male or female? How do you know? On the OP: It seems to me that it is your responsibility to prove that there is a difference rather than anyone else’s responsiblity to prove that there is not. All that aside, I suspect that there is a difference: I suspect that women are more morally aware than men, and men dislike them because of it. I suspect the reason why you have such a poor opinion of women is that women, generally, have a better intuitive understanding of other people and can spot someone who should not be trusted more readily than men can. ---
**Author:** ![Shortie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecd19e/32.png) [@Shortie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shortie)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2001, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexism-such-a-bad-thing/87260/23 "2001-10-14T14:28:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grenadier1974 \* > \*\*to tracer, > In Honesty, Thought, and the ability to put themselves in the other persons shoes. \*\* Well, if we’re gonna get into sterotypes, everyone knows (right?) that men are much more straightforward than women, wheras women are into that whole empathy thing. Therefore I believe that men are more honest and women are better at putting themselves in another persons shoes. I’m not even gonna touch the thought one. Seriusly, you really need some more definitions. I’ll certainly agree that men and women aren’t necessarily the same, but saying that one sex is morally and mentally better than the other? Sheesh. What about XXY individuals and others in the middle. Is it an environmental or a genetic factor? What are you actually measuring anyway? How are you measuring it? ---
**Author:** ![geepee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ebca7d/32.png) [@geepee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/geepee)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2001, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexism-such-a-bad-thing/87260/24 "2001-10-14T15:27:31Z")
maybe there are just more misogyists because women do things that men cannot , like have sex and after the event sue for rape (a 17 year old was recently convicted of rape after she changed her mind just as he was finishing UK), or use sex / denial of sex as power to manipulate men , also there are plenty of slly little things women can do purely for financial benifit , such as lawsuits for dislike of the uniforms (a few months ago eurostar stewardesses sued and won for not having to wear sheer blouses which they complained dark coloured underwear could be seen thru) women in Manchester city get drinks in bars for free , and can enter clubs free too , men don’t complain , women only clubs are ok but men only are just plain sexist also in adverts men are often immasculated and seen as dumb and the woman knows all (AA insurance for instance which in reality the woman who used the AA insurance was wrong since a issue was raised where it was cheaper elsewhere) maybe that is why misogyny is so common these days ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2001, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexism-such-a-bad-thing/87260/25 "2001-10-14T17:02:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by geepee \* > **maybe there are just more misogyists because women do things that men cannot , like have sex and after the event > sue for rape (a 17 year old was recently convicted of rape after she changed her mind just as he was finishing UK)** Were you there were you? Or is it just that you are choosing to believe the defendants side of the story? That aside, say the girl did sue for rape when she hadn’t actually been raped, that just makes her an unfortunate example of a human being. There are plenty of other similar examples of both genders > [@](#): > > \*\* > or use sex / denial of sex as power to manipulate men > \*\* This says as much about the idiot being “manipulated” as the one doing the manipulation. > [@](#): > > \*\* > women in Manchester city get drinks in bars for free , and can enter clubs free too , men don’t complain , women only clubs are ok but men only are just plain sexist > \*\* Woman get free drinks and free entry because the clubs know that the presence of woman will attract large numbers of men which equals $$$. This says more about men than women. > [@](#): > > \*\* > also in adverts men are often immasculated and seen as dumb and the woman knows all (AA insurance for instance which in reality the woman who used the AA insurance was wrong since > a issue was raised where it was cheaper elsewhere) \*\* This kind of thing is generally done as some attempt at humour. Humour is a technique often employed by advertising adjencies to try and make money. Sometimes humour isn’t appreciated by people who feel it hits a bit close to home. To the OP, of course men and women are not equal. Men are on average bigger and physically stronger than women. Men and women _seem_ to have slightly different ways of thinking about things (with numerous exceptions). But this doesn’t address the moral issue and I have no idea how you could prove that men have higher morals than women. In the absence of any evidence to the contrary and taking into consideration that we get the same upbringing and education, I guess we must accept that men and women are morally equal. As far as “mental” goes, I’m not really sure what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2001, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexism-such-a-bad-thing/87260/26 "2001-10-14T17:08:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by geepee \* > **maybe there are just more misogyists because women do things that men cannot , like have sex and after the event > sue for rape (a 17 year old was recently convicted of rape after she changed her mind just as he was finishing UK)** Were you there were you? Or is it just that you are choosing to believe the defendants side of the story? That aside, say the girl did sue for rape when she hadn’t actually been raped, that just makes her an unfortunate example of a human being. There are plenty of other similar examples of both genders > [@](#): > > \*\* > or use sex / denial of sex as power to manipulate men > \*\* This says as much about the idiot being “manipulated” as the one doing the manipulation. > [@](#): > > \*\* > women in Manchester city get drinks in bars for free , and can enter clubs free too , men don’t complain , women only clubs are ok but men only are just plain sexist > \*\* Woman get free drinks and free entry because the clubs know that the presence of woman will attract large numbers of men which equals $$$. This says more about men than women. > [@](#): > > \*\* > also in adverts men are often immasculated and seen as dumb and the woman knows all (AA insurance for instance which in reality the woman who used the AA insurance was wrong since > a issue was raised where it was cheaper elsewhere) \*\* This kind of thing is generally done as some attempt at humour. Humour is a technique often employed by advertising adjencies to try and make money. Sometimes humour isn’t appreciated by people who feel it hits a bit close to home. To the OP, of course men and women are not equal. Men are on average bigger and physically stronger than women. Men and women _seem_ to have slightly different ways of thinking about things (with numerous exceptions). But this doesn’t address the moral issue and I have no idea how you could prove that men have higher morals than women. In the absence of any evidence to the contrary and taking into consideration that we get the same upbringing and education, I guess we must accept that men and women are morally equal. As far as “mental” goes, I’m not really sure what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![grenadier1974](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a4c791/32.png) [@grenadier1974](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grenadier1974)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2001, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexism-such-a-bad-thing/87260/27 "2001-10-14T19:59:51Z")
For KellyM On what do you base the idea that women are better judges of character? Also, what difference does it make that I can’t be sure of you sex on this forum? ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2001, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexism-such-a-bad-thing/87260/28 "2001-10-14T20:30:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alessan \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by grenadier1974 \* > > Another question, whenever we say women are equal are we not just making a statement of faith? > > No, we are stating a course of action - that women should be treated as equal to men. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grenadier1974 \* > And, to be the devils advocate, what are we basing this statment of action on? I don’t think notions of equal treatment under the law (or otherwise) are based on the idea that everyone is equal. Surely, each individual is different from each other individual…some of smarter than others, some are bigger and stronger than others. However, this does not mean they should not be treated equally. Of course, in some situations we have the right to demand certain qualifications from people, e.g., in job performance. However, even here it makes sense to judge each person individually rather than simply saying, “Well men are on average stronger than women; therefore, women shouldn’t be [firemen, in combat, …]” ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2001, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexism-such-a-bad-thing/87260/29 "2001-10-14T21:01:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by geepee \* > **maybe there are just more misogyists because women do things that men cannot , like have sex and after the event > sue for rape** While men do things that women cannot, like **commit rape**. :rolleyes: [sub]Yes, I am aware that it is possible in limited instances for women to commit rape, I’m just pointing out the fallacy in this “women are worse” argument.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2001, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexism-such-a-bad-thing/87260/30 "2001-10-14T22:39:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grenadier1974 \* > **On what do you base the idea that women are better judges of character?** I can’t answer that question in this forum. > [@](#): > > \*\*Also, what difference does it make that I can’t be sure of you sex on this forum? \*\* Well, how else are you supposed to know whether I’m intelligent enough (or moral enough) to understand what you’re talking about? And how would you tell what gender I am in real life? ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2001, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexism-such-a-bad-thing/87260/31 "2001-10-15T01:19:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AHunter3 \* > \*\*:rolleyes: > > > [@](#): > > > > Is Sexism such a bad thing? > > Yes. > > approximate quote from Elizabeth Janeway, circa 1971: > > > [@](#): > > > > If we limit ourselves to what we know for sure about built-in differences in behavior between the sexes, all we can conclude is that their existence is an unresolvable hypothesis. What we can say furthermore is that the working of society and culture, by themselves, are perfectly capable of producing all the differences that we all know so well, and in my opinion they have. > > Regardless of whether or not you feel ready to nominate one or two “built-in differences” for consideration as more than an “unresolvable hypothesis”, the fundamental sense of what she is saying here still stands: what the fuck do you gain by observing a difference of the sort that you are describing in the OP and then attempting to conclude that the observed differences occurs because “men and women are just different that way”? > > I should also add that I don’t agree with your observation itself, either. > > My experience is very much the opposite. I have not found males to be spectacularly moral in their treatment of people, nor very wise or alert to realities around them, albeit many exceptions certainly exist. In fact, I’ve tended to be embarrassed by my gender and have resented being tarred by the reputation that other males have created just because I am a male as well. \*\* I have to admit, the males that ‘I’ know are great people and are respectful, BUT… that’s just the company I keep. I also have a lot of female friends too. I have been around when it was just me and “the girls”, and they are 10x worse than my male friends. BUT, I think a lot of females are used to saying certain things without the fear of males taking it so sensitively. When these friends of mine are alone and together, they make fun of their man’s size, the tell each other funny things the man does during sex, they complement their vibrator and not their guy, and they talk about men they would like to get with. My guy friends don’t tell me about their sex life because they feel it’s a private matter. My old girlfriend used to make fun of me with her friends that I was only 5"5’. Now, my older brother is the exact opposite of me, and he keeps different friends. I KNOW that men that way too, and I know women can be discreet and be 100% happy with their guy because they love him. So, I can see where each of you are coming from. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2001, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexism-such-a-bad-thing/87260/32 "2001-10-15T01:24:59Z")
sorry for spelling and such ---
**Author:** ![Diff\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@Diff\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diff_T)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2001, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexism-such-a-bad-thing/87260/33 "2001-10-15T01:45:21Z")
\*\* [/QUOTE] I have to admit, the males that ‘I’ know are great people and are respectful, BUT… that’s just the company I keep. I also have a lot of female friends too. I have been around when it was just me and “the girls”, and they are 10x worse than my male friends. BUT, I think a lot of females are used to saying certain things without the fear of males taking it so sensitively. When these friends of mine are alone and together, they make fun of their man’s size, the tell each other funny things the man does during sex, they complement their vibrator and not their guy, and they talk about men they would like to get with. My guy friends don’t tell me about their sex life because they feel it’s a private matter. My old girlfriend used to make fun of me with her friends that I was only 5"5’. Now, my older brother is the exact opposite of me, and he keeps different friends. I KNOW that men that way too, and I know women can be discreet and be 100% happy with their guy because they love him. So, I can see where each of you are coming from. \*\* [/QUOTE] My female friends are worse too… they would even admit it!!! Sorry, but it’s the truth. It’s not like that with everyone though, it can be opposite ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2001, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexism-such-a-bad-thing/87260/34 "2001-10-15T07:50:51Z")
In answer to the title of your post, yes. Sexism **IS** a bad thing Sexism is discrimination based on a person’s gender. Whether you are male or female, you should not be assumed to have or lack a certain set of attributes (I’m not talking about physical attributes, just mental). If somebody discriminates on these grounds, most “westernised\*” countries have laws that specifically state that this is illegal behaviour. That said, I do not believe the sexes are equal(except in the legal sense). Yes, everybody should recieve equal treatment. But, everyone is different. I may be an excellent female racing car driver, capable of competing at the highest level. I would be unusual, as most high level drivers are males, but I should still be able to compete on an equal footing. Studies have been done (read Men are from Mars… an excellent, humourous, layman’s look at the subject) that indicate that _ **in general** _ females _ **tend** _ to have strengths in some areas, males in others. However, in any group of males or females there is plenty of variation. Those studies show trends and generalisations, and are interesting areas for study. They indicate that males and females tend to have different hard wiring in the brain and therefore different strengths and weaknesses in different areas. These studies do **not** show that sexism is a good thing. What planet are you from ??? Is that a serious question you are asking ??? :rolleyes: Now, about how many ancient societies have subjugated women, that is an interesting subject which is worthy of debate. I hope a half decent historian may come along and post an answer for you, as that is not my area, and I don’t want to give you a WAG - when referring to westernised countries, no offence whatsoever is meant to any person from any country that is civilised but not seen as ‘westernised’. Sheesh… what’s the world coming to, when you have to spend 20 minutes searching for a word that wont offend anyone, and after failing to come up with one, you have to add a foot note… maybe that’s another thread !!! 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexism-such-a-bad-thing/87260.md?page=1)