# Is Sexual Assault Being Redefined ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexual-assault-being-redefined/513533 "2009-10-12T15:46:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexual-assault-being-redefined/513533/21 "2009-10-21T02:13:13Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > But I would chalk this up to putting cameras in 20 schools, taping a few thousand hours, and then editing it down until you’ve got a nice, manufactured scandal for the evening news. Right, I meant I can see how kids would do it on a particularly boring day. Not that it’d be routine, of course. But I think most people in this thread would be equally outraged if this is what kids do on boring days. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexual-assault-being-redefined/513533/22 "2009-10-21T02:21:12Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > Can’t you use a word BESIDES assault? And no, rape’s taken. Why? Touching someone without their permission IS assault. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexual-assault-being-redefined/513533/23 "2009-10-21T02:30:43Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Why? Touching someone without their permission IS assault. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexual-assault-being-redefined/513533/24 "2009-10-21T02:38:26Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > :smack: You seriously don’t think grabbing a girl’s breasts or ass without her permission is assault? ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexual-assault-being-redefined/513533/25 "2009-10-21T04:47:49Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > You seriously don’t think grabbing a girl’s breasts or ass without her permission is assault? No, i think the word ‘assault’ means to beat someone with a club, and everything else is manipulation of language to spin a certain message. (Talking strictly about word choice here, not laws or legal jargon, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexual-assault-being-redefined/513533/26 "2009-10-21T14:17:23Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > No, i think the word ‘assault’ means to beat someone with a club, and everything else is manipulation of language to spin a certain message. (Talking strictly about word choice here, not laws or legal jargon, etc.) You’re misunderstanding the definition of assault. Even trying to hand-wave away “laws or legal jargon, etc”, I think your interpretation is not accurate. You’re describing battery, and most dictionaries make a clear comparison that differentiate the two because people so commonly confuse them. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexual-assault-being-redefined/513533/27 "2009-10-21T18:06:03Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > Right, I meant I can see how kids would do it on a particularly boring day. Not that it’d be routine, of course. But I think most people in this thread would be equally outraged if this is what kids do on boring days. :rolleyes: I’m saying it’s _not_ routine, nor recurring, or at least I don’t think that’s likely. I think the news got word of one or two isolated incidents and decided to run a scary story to bump up their ratings. I’m not saying it doesn’t ever happen, I’m saying it isn’t indicative of some sort of sea change in how teenagers relate. It’s not cool, it never was cool, and the kids who are doing it are dicks, according to everyone involved and everyone on this message board. I’m saying chances are very very good that, no matter what you might hear on the news, there is no titty twisting, ass grabbing fad spreading throughout high schools across our heartland and infecting our children. It is manufactured. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexual-assault-being-redefined/513533/28 "2009-10-21T18:11:41Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > No, i think the word ‘assault’ means to beat someone with a club, and everything else is manipulation of language to spin a certain message. (Talking strictly about word choice here, not laws or legal jargon, etc.) Very well. What’s being described here is sexual harrassment. Happy now? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexual-assault-being-redefined/513533/29 "2009-10-21T18:28:46Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Very well. What’s being described here is sexual harrassment. Happy now? Why wouldn’t it be sexual assault? What _is_ sexual assault, if it isn’t groping people without their consent? ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexual-assault-being-redefined/513533/30 "2009-10-21T18:39:46Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Why wouldn’t it be sexual assault? What _is_ sexual assault, if it isn’t groping people without their consent? I’d eagerly call it sexual assault, but no one’s going to arrest these boys. Therefore, it falls under the same category as yelling, “Hey baby! Show me your tits!” It’s harrassment, and if school is anything like it was when I was going, nothing will be done about it. Maybe when some girls are actually raped in the washrooms, but not until then. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexual-assault-being-redefined/513533/31 "2009-10-21T19:21:32Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Very well. What’s being described here is sexual harrassment. Happy now? Yes. > [@](#): > > You’re misunderstanding the definition of assault. Even trying to hand-wave away “laws or legal jargon, etc”, I think your interpretation is not accurate. You’re describing battery, and most dictionaries make a clear comparison that differentiate the two because people so commonly confuse them. I don’t know how the legal definition got so twisted, but there’s the meaning that assault has in everyday language, and that’s the meaning that should be used in everyday language. Saying something else is manipulation. It evokes in most people’s minds an idea that is a bit different from what it would if the people really knew what the word meant. I don’t know, I think you know what I’m getting at. It’s like calling consensual sex with a minor “rape,” or saying the word “consensual” means something completely different from “willful.” It’s Orwellian Newspeak. It’s exactly what that is. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexual-assault-being-redefined/513533/32 "2009-10-21T19:30:34Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Hell, I was at a Dopefest once, and I saw 2 or 3 guys fondling a woman’s breasts almost like they were standing in line. So I got in line. And when I got up to her I asked, “Can I feel them too?” She said NO, and when the look on my face said “Why not me?”, she said that the other guys didn’t ask. One did it, and the others decided it was okay since she didn’t object or make a scene. > > Everyone involved was in their 20s or 30, except me. I was older. Honestly, I don’t understand the actions of ANY of them. How could the men assume what they did, and how could she just stand there and allow it to happen? I used to have an acquaintance who would do this sort of thing–randomly grab the breasts of women in his vicinity, especially at parties, and I never quite understood why everyone he did it to would giggle after the fact and say it was all right–moreso because he wasn’t just cupping, he was grabbing and squeezing hard enough to make them screech. As for why I personally didn’t get involved, I tried. “You want me to do something about him?” “No, it’s okay.” Maybe he was just psychic–he never did it to my wife or a few other seemingly randomly selected folks. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexual-assault-being-redefined/513533/33 "2009-10-21T19:35:56Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I used to have an acquaintance who would do this sort of thing–randomly grab the breasts of women in his vicinity, especially at parties, and I never quite understood why everyone he did it to would giggle after the fact and say it was all right–moreso because he wasn’t just cupping, he was grabbing and squeezing hard enough to make them screech. As for why I personally didn’t get involved, I tried. “You want me to do something about him?” “No, it’s okay.” Maybe he was just psychic–he never did it to my wife or a few other seemingly randomly selected folks. This is because women don’t slap men hard across the face like they used to. Probably because they know these types of guys would likely haul off and sock them. Ah, equal rights, it’s such a blessing. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexual-assault-being-redefined/513533/34 "2009-10-21T19:53:03Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > This is because women don’t slap men hard across the face like they used to. Probably because they know these types of guys would likely haul off and sock them. Ah, equal rights, it’s such a blessing. I was twice his size and offered to take him out behind the (literal in this case) woodshed and give him a good pounding, though, and they still laughed it off. Oh well. I gave him a talking-to, to which he replied “they obviously enjoy it and I don’t do it to chicks who don’t want it”. Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Kizarvexius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Kizarvexius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kizarvexius)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexual-assault-being-redefined/513533/35 "2009-10-21T21:05:27Z")
During high school, my ex-wife endured a lot of “touch-and-go” behavior from boys. She had developed a large chest at an early age, but being painfully shy, was unable to raise a fuss on the many instances of being “accidentally” elbowed or jostled in a crowded hallway. I don’t recall her ever mentioning anyone being as bold about groping as described in the OP, though. Clearly this kind of behavior cased her a lot of emotional anguish and varying degrees of physical pain. The sad part is that even if she had been bold enough to voice objections, most of these instances would likely have boiled down to a “he-said-she-said” stalemate. The startling number of pregnant students in attendance each year points to the fact that the school’s counselors had far more…um…_pressing_ concerns than mediating groping accusations. In fact, according to rumor, a keg of beer was awarded by each year’s senior class to the “top gun” – the guy responsible for the most pregnancies. In short, I don’t know if there is an administrative solution. Though it clearly (in my humble non-attorney’s opinion) meets the definition of assault, calling it “rape” is too extreme. Sexual harassment seems a much more accurate term. My daughter is now 10 years old and has not yet developed the Partonesque family curse. As it’s probably only a matter of time, though, I’ve already started teaching her that a) this sort of thing _can_ happen to her; and b) she is not to tolerate it for a moment. In my way of thinking, the best possible reaction is a loud shriek and a stentorian “keep your hands to yourself, dogfood breath.” ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexual-assault-being-redefined/513533/36 "2009-10-21T21:15:31Z")
Oh c’mon, _dogfood breath_? This is a perfect teaching opportunity about when obscenities _are_ called for. Shithead, Shitforbrains, dickhead, all would be appropriate. Also, a threat to crush their balls if it happens again would be a nice touch. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexual-assault-being-redefined/513533/37 "2009-10-21T21:59:28Z")
> [@Kizarvexius](#): > > During high school, my ex-wife endured a lot of “touch-and-go” behavior from boys. She had developed a large chest at an early age, but being painfully shy, was unable to raise a fuss on the many instances of being “accidentally” elbowed or jostled in a crowded hallway. Was the hallways actually crowded? If so, getting elbowed in something that is enormous, sensitive, and protruding might be something that is a bit inevitable. I wasn’t there, but be careful about teaching your daughter to be overly sensitive and suspicious of people. It can do her more harm than good. Man, if I had a completely unintentional accidental brush with a girl’s chest in a crowded hallway and she started screaming, that’d be fucked up. I’d be very embarrassed, but I’d immediately comfort myself with the thought that everyone else probably realizes she’s crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexual-assault-being-redefined/513533/38 "2009-10-21T22:35:42Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Oh c’mon, _dogfood breath_? This is a perfect teaching opportunity about when obscenities _are_ called for. Shithead, Shitforbrains, dickhead, all would be appropriate. Also, a threat to crush their balls if it happens again would be a nice touch. Or a little support from the school, perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexual-assault-being-redefined/513533/39 "2009-10-21T22:48:43Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > Was the hallways actually crowded? If so, getting elbowed in something that is enormous, sensitive, and protruding might be something that is a bit inevitable. I wasn’t there, but be careful about teaching your daughter to be overly sensitive and suspicious of people. It can do her more harm than good. > > Man, if I had a completely unintentional accidental brush with a girl’s chest in a crowded hallway and she started screaming, that’d be fucked up. I’d be very embarrassed, but I’d immediately comfort myself with the thought that everyone else probably realizes she’s crazy. We’re not talking about that. His ex wife’s story is all too familiar. There is a huge difference between someone accidentally brushing against someone’s breast or ass–we’ve all had that happen I’m sure–and someone grabbing your breasts. I’ve lived in crowded areas and never once accidentally groped someone. Why are you so eager to tell us that being groped isn’t so bad because it’s not the same as being beat up with a club? Or that it’s all in a woman’s head? ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexual-assault-being-redefined/513533/40 "2009-10-21T23:23:12Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > We’re not talking about that. His ex wife’s story is all too familiar. There is a huge difference between someone accidentally brushing against someone’s breast or ass–we’ve all had that happen I’m sure–and someone grabbing your breasts. I’ve lived in crowded areas and never once accidentally groped someone. > > Why are you so eager to tell us that being groped isn’t so bad because it’s not the same as being beat up with a club? Or that it’s all in a woman’s head? For the record, Kizarvexius used the words “accidentally elbowed or jostled,” not that his wife’s breasts were grabbed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexual-assault-being-redefined/513533.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sexual-assault-being-redefined/513533.md?page=3)