# Is Shane MacGowan ex of the Pogues a musical genius or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 21, 2003, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shane-macgowan-ex-of-the-pogues-a-musical-genius-or-not/183413 "2003-06-21T14:35:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shane-macgowan-ex-of-the-pogues-a-musical-genius-or-not/183413/1 "2003-06-21T14:35:05Z")
Sure he’s a chronic, stumbling alcoholic with a mouthful of black stubs for teeth but all that pales beside his art…or does it? What works of his should I listen to to understand why he is so highly regarded? I’m looking for some suggestions re songs that would illustrate his greatness. ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shane-macgowan-ex-of-the-pogues-a-musical-genius-or-not/183413/2 "2003-06-21T14:49:47Z")
To answer your question: yes, he’s a genius. Get _If I Should Fall From Grace With God_, which I think is the best Pogues album. Most people say _Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash_ is their best album – I think it’s excellent, and it’s the one that got me into them in the first place, but I think it’s a little too confined by tradition. They sound like they were just taking the gimmick of the band (traditional Irish music performed by a punk band) and sticking to that. It wasn’t until the EP _Poguetry in Motion_ and the full-length _If I Should Fall From Grace With God_ that they really broke out. IMO, of course. Best songs on _If I Should Fall…_ are “Fairytale of New York,” “Turkish Song of the Damned,” “Bottle of Smoke,” and “The Broad Majestic Shannon.” My favorite lyric by Shane MacGowan is from “Billy’s Bones” on _Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash_: > [@](#): > > Billy saw the Arabs and he had 'em on the run > When he got 'em in the range of his sub-machine gun > Then he got the Israelis in his sights > Went a-ra-ta-ta and they ran like Shi-ites ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shane-macgowan-ex-of-the-pogues-a-musical-genius-or-not/183413/3 "2003-06-21T14:51:06Z")
And he can’t sing. But his performance is unmistakable. Pogues songs just aren’t Pogues songs without Shane (cf. _Waiting for Herb_). Shane _made_ The Pogues. I like his lyrics, and I like his gravelly, smoke-destroyed voice. I’d suggest _Rum, Sodomy & the Lash_. I’d say it’s the quintessential Pogues. Their first album (IIRC) was _Red Roses for Me_. Again IIRC, half of it was the Pogues’s interpretation of traditional songs. _RS&tL_ also has old tunes such as _Sally Maclennane_ and _Jesse James_. This was the first one I bought (for _A Pair of Brown Eyes_). Then there is the Christmas favourite, _A Fairytale of New York_ (with the late Kirsty MacColl); perhaps my favourite Christmas tune of all time with its story of a bickering who find there is love after all. _Peace and Love_ is a good album, as is _A Fairytale of New York__Hell’s Ditch_ digresses a bit from the Pogues “sound” and I think you really need to be a Pogues fan to appreciate it. I think I’ve listened to _Waiting for Herb_ twice. It’s okay, but it’s not The Pogues. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shane-macgowan-ex-of-the-pogues-a-musical-genius-or-not/183413/4 "2003-06-21T14:52:31Z")
“with its story of a bickering **couple** …” ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shane-macgowan-ex-of-the-pogues-a-musical-genius-or-not/183413/5 "2003-06-21T15:45:33Z")
One more vote for the Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash album. It was also my introduction to the Pogues back in 1996. And again, “Fairytale of New York” is gorgeous. That’s all there is to it. I believe there is another recent thread about a new Shane McGowan/Pogues DVD that just came out. ---
**Author:** ![stigoftdump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@stigoftdump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stigoftdump)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shane-macgowan-ex-of-the-pogues-a-musical-genius-or-not/183413/6 "2003-06-21T18:00:14Z")
Yeh, the guy’s a bit of a genius. I wouldn’t say that Rum Sodemy and the Lash is over-run by irishness - quite of the opposite. I found (and still find) the excuberance of trad. Irish music fused with the f-you of punk hopelessly exciting, and the songs were (and still are) amazing. On some days, I’m quite happy calling \A Pair Of Brown Eyes\ the best song ever written. ---
**Author:** ![vl\_mungo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc8723/32.png) [@vl\_mungo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vl_mungo)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shane-macgowan-ex-of-the-pogues-a-musical-genius-or-not/183413/7 "2003-06-21T18:22:46Z")
I’m going to jump on the **Rum, Sodomy and the Lash** bandwagon… I defy anyone to listen to _A Pair of Brown Eyes_ and not say it’s poetry. **If I Should Fall From Grace With God** is also a damn fine album. Damn damn fine. ---
**Author:** ![Sikander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b2d939/32.png) [@Sikander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sikander)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shane-macgowan-ex-of-the-pogues-a-musical-genius-or-not/183413/8 "2003-06-21T19:38:34Z")
Shane is most definitely is a lyrical genius. Calling him a “muscial” one is laying it on a bit thick - he’s not the worlds greatest singer. Then again the same can be said for Dylan. Snippets from a handful of my favorite Pogues songs to get you acquainted… **London you’re a Lady** Ah London you’re a lady Laid out before my eyes Your heart of gold it pulses Between your scarred up thighs Your eyes are full of sadness Red busses skirt your hem Your head-dress is a ring of lights But I would not follow them Your architects were madmen Your builders sane but drunk Among your faded jewels Shine acid house and punk You are a scarlet lady Your streets run red with blood Oh my darling they have used you And covered you with mud It was deep down in your womb my love I drank my quart of sin While chinamen played cards and draughts And knocked back mickey finns Your piss is like a river Its scent is beer and gin Your hell is in the summer And you blossom in the spring September is your purgatory Christmas is your heaven And when the stinking streets of summer Are washed away by rain At the dark end of a lonely street That’s where you lose your pain 'Tis then your eyes light up my love And sparkle once again **A Rainy Night in Soho** I’ve been loving you a long time Down all the years, down all the days And I’ve cried for all your troubles Smiled at your funny little ways We watched our friends grow up together And we saw them as they fell Some of them fell into Heaven Some of them fell into Hell I took shelter from a shower And I stepped into your arms On a rainy night in Soho The wind was whistling all its charms I sang you all my sorrows You told me all your joys Whatever happened to that old song To all those little girls and boys Now the song is nearly over We may never find out what it means But there’s a light I hold before me And you’re the measure of my dreams The measure of my dreams **Church of the Holy Spook** My Daddy was a sinner, my Mother was a saintly person But I ruined my life by drinking, bad Wives, taking pills and cursing Rock and Roll you crucified me, Left me all alone I never should have turned my back on The old folks back home **The Broad Majestic Shannon** And the next time I see you we’ll be down at the Greeks There’ll be whiskey on Sunday and tears on our cheeks For it’s stupid to laugh and it’s useless to bawl About a rusty tin can and an old hurley ball So I walked as day was dawning Where small birds sang and leaves were falling Where we once watched the row boats landing By the broad majestic Shannon **USA** I took the cold bright needle I used it as a sword My eyes have seen the glory of The coming of the Lord **Summer in Siam** When it’s summer in Siam And the moon is full of rainbows When it’s summer in Siam And we go through many changes When it’s summer in Siam Then all I really know Is that I truly am In the summer in Siam ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shane-macgowan-ex-of-the-pogues-a-musical-genius-or-not/183413/9 "2003-06-22T03:59:15Z")
[That thread about the Shane MacGowan DVD.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=189086&highlight=Shane+macgowan) And yes, he is that brilliant. _Peace in Love_ is actually my favorite album, but only by a whisker over _If I Should Fall From Grace with God_. _Waiting for Herb_ is actually quite good (esp. “Drunken Boat” and “Tuesday Morning”) but as **Johnny L.A.** said, it’s just not The Pogues. _Pogue Mahone_, their last album, is just bad. ---
**Author:** ![5-HT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/f19dbf/32.png) [@5-HT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5-HT)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shane-macgowan-ex-of-the-pogues-a-musical-genius-or-not/183413/10 "2003-06-22T04:03:44Z")
yes, Shane Mcgowan is a genius. and, sorry miller, _If I should fall from grace with god_ is much better than _Peace in Love_ ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shane-macgowan-ex-of-the-pogues-a-musical-genius-or-not/183413/11 "2003-06-22T04:06:55Z")
I didn’t say it wasn’t. I just said which one I like better. ---
**Author:** ![Headcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@Headcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Headcoat)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shane-macgowan-ex-of-the-pogues-a-musical-genius-or-not/183413/12 "2003-06-22T04:08:05Z")
His two albums with the Popes, Crock of Gold and The Snake are both excellent - not as good as Rum, Sodomy and the Lash but far better than Peace and Love or Hell’s Ditch. Its a little less punk rock, and a lot more American Rock n Roll, but still with a strong dose of trad Irish folk. And “Sea Shanty” from their first album is my favorite song ever.