# Is Shaun King (Daily Kos writer & Black Lives Matter activist) really white? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271 "2015-08-19T16:39:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/321 "2015-08-21T18:47:00Z")
No matter what the truth is, Vicki Pate (the blogger that was the sole source for the Breitbart article) has succeeded. The conversation is no longer about police brutality against blacks, other minorities, or people in general. Even if King’s biological father came forward and proved King is telling the truth, it won’t matter to the people that believe Pate at this point. They just know deep down that King is bad even if he happened to tell the truth about this one little thing. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/322 "2015-08-21T18:47:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Except in the rarest of cases, if you’re an American and your DNA says you have recent ancestors from Africa, you’re not going to have to look far back on your family tree to find someone who did not have the opportunity to pass as white. That may be a limit based on the accuracy of our technology at present and could change in the future. What’s “recent”? My father’s father had very dark skin for a self-identified white person. Family lore said that his mother had significant Native American ancestry. But me and my uncle (dad’s brother) did DNA ancestry tests recently, and found small but significant sub-Saharan African ancestry (~3% for me, ~6% for my uncle), and negligible (~0.2%) Native American ancestry. This would seem to indicate a high probability that my grandfather was 1/8th African, and his mother was probably 1/4th. Beyond that, I have little idea – it’s probably just as likely that my great-grandmother was the child of two 1/4th-African people as that she was the child of a ‘full white’ person and a half-African person. I doubt my story is particularly unusual, so I think it’s very possible that there are lots of Americans with significant (if small) amounts of African ancestry who can’t trace a recent ancestor who could not “pass as white”, depending on what you mean by “recent”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/323 "2015-08-21T18:48:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > How about if my recent ancestors from Africa were Afrikaans-Boers? Or from Egypt? > Being African does not make you Black. You’re right. People reading this thread are so confused by the term “African”, and the fact that we aren’t saying “deep ancestry in Sub-Sahara Africa”. Thanks for pointing that out. Now we can continue without that confusion. You’ve saved the thread!! ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/324 "2015-08-21T18:55:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Perhaps a better way of framing it is saying it centers around whether or not he has a legitimate reason to self-identify as black. Is he just another Rachel Dolezal, or is there more to his narrative that gives him some claim to call himself black? > > For instance, do you consider Rachel Dolezal to be black? I don’t. I’m not sure I have well-formed views here, but my superficial impression is this: If your phenotype is such that society will treat you as black giving you the option of self-identifying that way, your decision to do so could be moral or immoral depending on the circumstances. If you were always treated as white as a child, and then you switch up your hair and start successfully identifying as black and talk about how hard it was to be a black child, then you’re obviously a fraud. Similarly, if all of your recent ancestors successfully self-identified as white, and you complain about how racism has prevented the generational accumulation of wealth in your family tree, you’re a fraud. But if you were always treated as white as a child, and then you switch up your hair and start successfully identifying as black and talk about how hard it is to be black as an adult, then I’m not sure there’s something immoral or illegitimate about that. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Except in the rarest of cases, if you’re an American and your DNA says you have recent ancestors from Africa, you’re not going to have to look far back on your family tree to find someone who did not have the opportunity to pass as white. That may be a limit based on the accuracy of our technology at present and could change in the future. Ok. But doesn’t that just mean there are some racial contexts in which that genealogy is relevant and some where it is not? Suppose I identify as black without any recent African ancestry, but I pass just fine and society generally treats me as black. And I get racially profiled. Am I allowed to complain about that? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/325 "2015-08-21T18:55:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What’s “recent”? My father’s father had very dark skin for a self-identified white person. Family lore said that his mother had significant Native American ancestry. But me and my uncle (dad’s brother) did DNA ancestry tests recently, and found small but significant sub-Saharan African ancestry (~3% for me, ~6% for my uncle), and negligible (~0.2%) Native American ancestry. This would seem to indicate a high probability that my grandfather was 1/8th African, and his mother was probably 1/4th. Beyond that, I have little idea – it’s probably just as likely that my great-grandmother was the child of two 1/4th-African people as that she was the child of a ‘full white’ person and a half-African person. > > I doubt my story is particularly unusual, so I think it’s very possible that there are lots of Americans with significant (if small) amounts of African ancestry who can’t trace a recent ancestor who could not “pass as white”, depending on what you mean by “recent”. You’ll have to ask **Richard Parker**. He used the term first in this little side discussion. I think he meant “recent” in the sense of you having some lingering effect of racism in your circumstances. And there is really no way of knowing that. There are any number of well off black people who are doing quite well despite the incontrovertible fact that they were negatively affected by racism. How could we tell if you, by all accounts a white person, were so affected? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/326 "2015-08-21T18:57:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You’ll have to ask **Richard Parker**. He used the term first in this little side discussion. I think he meant “recent” in the sense of you having some lingering effect of racism in your circumstances. And there is really no way of knowing that. There are any number of well off black people who are doing quite well despite the incontrovertible fact that they were negatively affected by racism. How could we tell if you, by all accounts a white person, were so affected? I can tell – I wasn’t affected. Neither was my father or his siblings. I don’t know if my grandfather was affected, but as far as I know he was not aware of his true ancestry. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/327 "2015-08-21T19:01:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I can tell – I wasn’t affected. Neither was my father or his siblings. I don’t know if my grandfather was affected, but as far as I know he was not aware of his true ancestry. How would you know? Maybe your x-x-x-grandfather would have been a wealthy robber baron except he was outed as being black. Had that not happened, you’d be a billionaire right now. You might even identify with Donald Trump, and if THAT doesn’t count as being affected, I don’t know what would! ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/328 "2015-08-21T19:02:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > …if you’re an American and your DNA says you have recent ancestors from Africa… Does DNA actually say this? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/329 "2015-08-21T19:05:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You’re right. People reading this thread are so confused by the term “African”, and the fact that we aren’t saying “deep ancestry in Sub-Sahara Africa”. Thanks for pointing that out. Now we can continue without that confusion. You’ve saved the thread!! Boers live in Sub-Sahara **n** Africa. > **[Sub-Saharan Africa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan_Africa)** > > Sub-Saharan Africa or Subsahara is the area and regions of the continent of Africa that lie south of the Sahara. These include Central Africa, East Africa, Southern Africa, and West Africa. Geopolitically, in addition to the African countries and territories that are situated fully in that specified region, the term may also include polities that only have part of their territory located in that region, per the definition of the United Nations (UN). This is considered a non-standardized geo Th... There are about Five Million “white” people who were born in Sub-Saharan Africa. Many of those go back before the USA declared it’s independence, as early as 1652. If my greatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreat granparents were born in Africa, am i not African? This is not pointless. “African” or even “Sub-Saharan African” does not = “Black”. Many “white” people are natives there for any reasonable definition of “native”. Can you define what makes someone black? Are Indigenous Australians= “Black”? How about Melanesians ? or Negritos? Are we not all very likely descended from Africans? > **[Recent African origin of modern humans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recent_African_origin_of_modern_humans)** > > In paleoanthropology, the recent African origin of modern humans or the "Out of Africa" theory (OOA)\[a\] is the most widely accepted model of the geographic origin and early migration of anatomically modern humans (Homo sapiens). It follows the early expansions of hominins out of Africa, accomplished by Homo erectus and then Homo neanderthalensis. > The model proposes a "single origin" of Homo sapiens in the taxonomic sense, precluding parallel evolution in other regions of traits considered anat... There is no such thing as a definition for “black” other than someone saying “I am black”- that isnt racist. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/330 "2015-08-21T19:07:04Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > Does DNA actually say this? Maybe. In some cases. Not definitive. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/331 "2015-08-21T19:10:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What’s “recent”? My father’s father had very dark skin for a self-identified white person. Family lore said that his mother had significant Native American ancestry. But me and my uncle (dad’s brother) did DNA ancestry tests recently, and found small but significant sub-Saharan African ancestry (~3% for me, ~6% for my uncle), and negligible (~0.2%) Native American ancestry. This would seem to indicate a high probability that my grandfather was 1/8th African, and his mother was probably 1/4th. Beyond that, I have little idea – it’s probably just as likely that my great-grandmother was the child of two 1/4th-African people as that she was the child of a ‘full white’ person and a half-African person. BTW, I’m not sure I would accept 3% as being within the margin of error of the analysis. How sure are you that the test is able to be that precise. Keep in mind that it takes very few generations (5 or 6) before there is a significant possibility that none of your genes are derived from a given ancestor. Or at least none that can be detected. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/332 "2015-08-21T19:15:36Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I’m not sure I have well-formed views here, but my superficial impression is this: > > If your phenotype is such that society will treat you as black giving you the option of self-identifying that way, your decision to do so could be moral or immoral depending on the circumstances. > > If you were always treated as white as a child, and then you switch up your hair and start successfully identifying as black and talk about how hard it was to be a black child, then you’re obviously a fraud. Similarly, if all of your recent ancestors successfully self-identified as white, and you complain about how racism has prevented the generational accumulation of wealth in your family tree, you’re a fraud. Agreed. > [@](#): > > But if you were always treated as white as a child, and then you switch up your hair and start successfully identifying as black and talk about how hard it is to be black as an adult, then I’m not sure there’s something immoral or illegitimate about that. I’m not sure either. > [@](#): > > Ok. But doesn’t that just mean there are some racial contexts in which that genealogy is relevant and some where it is not? Suppose I identify as black without any recent African ancestry, but I pass just fine and society generally treats me as black. And I get racially profiled. Am I allowed to complain about that? Yes and no. 🙂 You get to talk about it, but we get to remind you that you can escape that treatment at will, which is something most American blacks cannot do. I would imagine that black people would have more problems with white people masquerading as black and talking about how hard it is being a black person than a white person would. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/333 "2015-08-21T19:15:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > BTW, I’m not sure I would accept 3% as being within the margin of error of the analysis. How sure are you that the test is able to be that precise. Keep in mind that it takes very few generations (5 or 6) before there is a significant possibility that none of your genes are derived from a given ancestor. Or at least none that can be detected. Two things – first, the fact that my father’s brother’s results were ~6% seems to confirm it (or significantly raise the likelihood). Second, my understanding is that there are various snippets (which are much, much smaller than 3%, and even smaller than 0.1% of one’s entire genetic code) of one’s DNA that geneticists have traced with pretty high confidence as having originated in various regions of the world, and thus somewhere around 3% of the snippets of my DNA, the analysts from 23andMe are relatively confident originate in sub-Saharan Africa. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/334 "2015-08-21T21:13:53Z")
> [@Gent](#): > > The poster above is a great example of why you shouldn’t waste your time debating this subject. Lost in these people are the facts: Mr. King’s family, including his brother, have stated that he’s not black - and that he lied about the events surrounding his attack. King himself has already admitted that he has no idea who his father is. Previously he stated that he knew his father was black. > > Please, do not debate these people. They’re trolling you. It will drive you nuts. Mr. King has been caught in his lies. The case is closed. You’re going to have to show me where HIS Brother said he wasn’t black. Fact is YOU can’t. His mother told him that his father was black. There has been a relentless in pathetic witch hunt. Sorry, you got pwned. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/335 "2015-08-21T21:17:22Z")
> [@theR](#): > > No matter what the truth is, Vicki Pate (the blogger that was the sole source for the Breitbart article) has succeeded. The conversation is no longer about police brutality against blacks, other minorities, or people in general. Even if King’s biological father came forward and proved King is telling the truth, it won’t matter to the people that believe Pate at this point. They just know deep down that King is bad even if he happened to tell the truth about this one little thing. You mean the white supremacist who has been banned on social media for racial slurs? Yeah, I really want to believe a scum like that. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/336 "2015-08-21T21:28:14Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There is no specific DNA marker for “black”. > > Does anyone here care to define who is and is not “black”? > > You know what the federal Government defines are 'black"? Self-identify. He Self-identifies as black, thus he is. > > anything else is racist. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/337 "2015-08-21T21:43:42Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > His mother told him that his father was black. According to him. > [@](#): > > There has been a relentless in pathetic witch hunt. 😕 What is a “relentless in pathetic witch hunt?” ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/338 "2015-08-21T22:21:57Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > According to him. > > 😕 > > What is a “relentless in pathetic witch hunt?” Omg it’s a typo. Burn me at the stake. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/339 "2015-08-21T22:26:23Z")
[quote=“D\_Anconia, post:337, topic:728271”] According to him. Oh yeah, I guess the witch hunters want to harass the hell out the woman who told Shaun about his father. Although mom is a private citizen and didn’t ask for this kind of scrutiny about her sex life in 1979. But hey, it’s not all bad. The Ashley Madison dump claimed another GOP hypocrite, throw them on the pile with Josh Duggar and his defender Mike. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/340 "2015-08-21T22:45:36Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > Omg it’s a typo. Burn me at the stake. What did you mean to say in that sentence? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271.md?page=18)