# Is Shaun King (Daily Kos writer & Black Lives Matter activist) really white? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271 "2015-08-19T16:39:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/701 "2015-09-20T18:41:38Z")
The only “stupidity” I read is a some white folks trying in vein to explain why they think they are superior. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/702 "2015-09-20T18:54:42Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > The only “stupidity” I read is a some white folks trying in vein to explain why they think they are superior. Back off. If you want to insult posters, open a thread in The BBQ Pit. Stick to the facrts and logic of the discussion and leave personal comments out of it. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/703 "2015-09-23T12:13:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If it’s not clinal, then where is the break (or breaks)? Where, specifically, can you travel from one village to the next and find huge differences? If there’s not a specific place (i.e. these two villages in Sudan, or similar), then it’s entirely clinal. Your confusion around whether or not this clinal argument has anything to do with the biological issues surrounding race is understandable. It’s a popular approach to break down any race-biology arguments by trying to get rid of biologic divisions. But it actually has nothing at all to do with race-based biologic differences. Race (see above) is self-defined. Self-defined. Navin Johnson can be black, if he chooses. Shaun King can be black, if he chooses. President Obama can be black, if he chooses. No clinal gradiations; no migration history; no evolution…–no biology of any kind puts them in one category or another, or a combination of categories. Self-defined. Now, if you take–as a group–all self-defined blacks, you will find there is a group average difference between that self-defined group and a self-defined group of whites for the prevalence of gene variants. There is a biologic reason that self-identification with white gives you a much higher chance of being part Neandertal. That reason is the average choice of everyone in the group. So if we looked at an outcome driven by Neandertal genes, we would see a biologically driven difference for a self-defined group. If, for example, you looked at the average prevalence for Neandertal genes in the whole group of self-defined whites or asians, and the average prevalence for Neandertal genes in the whole group of self-defined blacks, you would find an average difference. In this case, a huge difference. As it turns out, historic migration patterns are reflected in how we self-identify, even if we don’t coerce people to pay attention to their genetic heritage. And therefore, that self-identification ends up creating groups with large average differences for the prevalence of gene variants which were introduced to descendant lines along the migration way. I hope that helps; to what extent any two people are related or diverse; to what extent any two groups are smoothly clinal; to what extent a given individual has completely gone against the average self-identification his migration history would suggest–none of that has anything to do with what happens at a group average for the prevalence of genetic variants. That’s why Shaun King gets to be black if he wants to. If he has mostly european genes, he will skew the biological average a tiny bit, but insignificantly so because the average choice is more closely aligned with genetic heritage. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/704 "2015-09-23T13:01:19Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Your confusion around whether or not this clinal argument has anything to do with the biological issues surrounding race is understandable. It’s a popular approach to break down any race-biology arguments by trying to get rid of biologic divisions. > > But it actually has nothing at all to do with race-based biologic differences. > > Race (see above) is self-defined. Self-defined. > Navin Johnson can be black, if he chooses. Shaun King can be black, if he chooses. President Obama can be black, if he chooses. > > No clinal gradiations; no migration history; no evolution…–no biology of any kind puts them in one category or another, or a combination of categories. > > Self-defined. > > Now, if you take–as a group–all self-defined blacks, you will find there is a group average difference between that self-defined group and a self-defined group of whites for the prevalence of gene variants. There is a biologic reason that self-identification with white gives you a much higher chance of being part Neandertal. That reason is the average choice of everyone in the group. So if we looked at an outcome driven by Neandertal genes, we would see a biologically driven difference for a self-defined group. > > If, for example, you looked at the average prevalence for Neandertal genes in the whole group of self-defined whites or asians, and the average prevalence for Neandertal genes in the whole group of self-defined blacks, you would find an average difference. In this case, a huge difference. > > As it turns out, historic migration patterns are reflected in how we self-identify, even if we don’t coerce people to pay attention to their genetic heritage. > > And therefore, that self-identification ends up creating groups with large average differences for the prevalence of gene variants which were introduced to descendant lines along the migration way. > > I hope that helps; to what extent any two people are related or diverse; to what extent any two groups are smoothly clinal; to what extent a given individual has completely gone against the average self-identification his migration history would suggest–none of that has anything to do with what happens at a group average for the prevalence of genetic variants. > > That’s why Shaun King gets to be black if he wants to. If he has mostly european genes, he will skew the biological average a tiny bit, but insignificantly so because the average choice is more closely aligned with genetic heritage. But considering the complexity of human genetics (as has been pointed out before), you could take any self-identified grouping – people who identify as Yankees fans and people who identify as Royals fans – and there would be group-average differences. That there are group-average differences don’t tell us much. And all the scientists seem to agree that differences within groups are far more significant than differences between groups. Keeping this in mind, and keeping in mind how unequal society still remains in so many areas of society and culture, I see no reason to accept that such group-average differences in genetics are responsible for statistical societal outcome differences. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/705 "2015-09-23T21:19:05Z")
Perhaps as we figure out the (non-genetic) Nurturing secrets of why race-based group averages are so intractably different, the effect of Nature will go away. Asians will grow too culturally slothful to be STEM professionals. The Hebrew league will return to glory in the NBA. Pacific Islanders will run sub-9 second 100-meter dashes in the Olympics. Mbutis will set new high jump records. And we’ll find out this whole gene thing was simply a racist canard. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/706 "2015-09-23T22:15:38Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Perhaps as we figure out the (non-genetic) Nurturing secrets of why race-based group averages are so intractably different, the effect of Nature will go away. > > Asians will grow too culturally slothful to be STEM professionals. > The Hebrew league will return to glory in the NBA. > Pacific Islanders will run sub-9 second 100-meter dashes in the Olympics. > Mbutis will set new high jump records. > > And we’ll find out this whole gene thing was simply a racist canard. I doubt very much it’s a secret… throughout American history, the reasons why black people were behind economically and educationally were pretty clear – I suspect most of the same factors (minus chattel slavery) are at work to varying and mostly lesser but still significant degrees today. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/707 "2015-09-23T22:24:40Z")
From 1975-1980, black America was finally free of official state-sponsored racism. The de facto segregation, poverty, and mass incarceration of black men that followed, and all the ensuing consequences, is all or at least principally a product of genes and bad choices. It certainly has nothing to do with the three hundred years of preceding history. Hmm, that doesn’t quite ring true. How about this: the end of slavery marked the end of obstacles to black success in America. Jim Crow only affected a few isolated neighborhoods. Hmm, nah. How about this: redlining is fake like the moon landing. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/708 "2015-09-23T23:34:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I doubt very much it’s a secret… throughout American history, the reasons why black people were behind economically and educationally were pretty clear – I suspect most of the same factors (minus chattel slavery) are at work to varying and mostly lesser but still significant degrees today. This is your reason why wealthy blacks and blacks with highly educated parents academically underscore poverty stricken whites and asians with uneducated parents? ? Their ancestors were oppressed? And that just applies for previously oppressed blacks, versus say, previously oppressed ashkenazis or asians? Anyway, bottom line: Shaun King gets to label himself black, and get in on that ancestry excuse should those stellar academic scores of his turn out to be not all that great. 🙂 \ ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/709 "2015-09-24T01:28:36Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > This is your reason why wealthy blacks and blacks with highly educated parents academically underscore poverty stricken whites and asians with uneducated parents? > > ? > > Their ancestors were oppressed? And that just applies for previously oppressed blacks, versus say, previously oppressed ashkenazis or asians? Did you not read my post? It’s about society and culture today, not what happened to their ancestors. It’s about how black people in America, even wealthy kids, are treated today. We’ve had this discussion before. Every time, I say it’s about what’s going on today, and how people are treated today, and every time you ask me why their ancestors’ mistreatment would hold them back. Please try to remember this time: it’s not about their ancestors, it’s about society and culture and how people are treated today. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/710 "2015-09-24T09:54:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Did you not read my post? It’s about society and culture today, not what happened to their ancestors. It’s about how black people in America, even wealthy kids, are treated today. > > We’ve had this discussion before. Every time, I say it’s about what’s going on today, and how people are treated today, and every time you ask me why their ancestors’ mistreatment would hold them back. Please try to remember this time: it’s not about their ancestors, it’s about society and culture and how people are treated today. But just blacks, right? Not, for example, a dark-skinned south asian? His scholastic performance is unaffected by prejudice and mistreatment, right? That’s why it feels like the specific cultural reason for black academic underperformance is still a secret. Mom and Dad can be wealthy; Mom and Dad can be highly educated. But mistreated Junior still underperforms poverty-stricken white and asian peers from families with uneducated parents. A puzzlement, I’d say. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/711 "2015-09-24T10:19:34Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > But just blacks, right? > Not, for example, a dark-skinned south asian? His scholastic performance is unaffected by prejudice and mistreatment, right? I don’t know if it’s unaffected, but considering American history, black people have been and are being uniquely mistreated by society and culture. > [@](#): > > That’s why it feels like the specific cultural reason for black academic underperformance is still a secret. Mom and Dad can be wealthy; Mom and Dad can be highly educated. But mistreated Junior still underperforms poverty-stricken white and asian peers from families with uneducated parents. A puzzlement, I’d say. Not really. Teacher expectations, media depictions, and day-to-day racism and discrimination, are just some of the significant differences experienced by black people. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/712 "2015-09-24T10:32:49Z")
You always ask the same questions, and I always give the same answers. There’s nothing new here. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/713 "2015-09-24T12:27:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You always ask the same questions, and I always give the same answers. There’s nothing new here. Ya think? ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/714 "2015-09-24T12:27:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Not really. Teacher expectations, media depictions, and day-to-day racism and discrimination, are just some of the significant differences experienced by black people. So, it’s blank slate thing? We can look at the specific day-to-day discrimination against black people today, and historically speaking, when we see that level of discrimination, we will reliably see equal socioeconomic performance, crime rates, etc.? Heck, we can even do this historically, and look at records of the slavery and discrimination of the [Slavic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs) peoples, and how that affected their relative position as a racial group. Is this really that hard, people? Race and culture are co-heritable; if you have a stable grouping, people find mates and partners within that group, and so both genes and cultural values get passed on. When you have a racial group which mostly shares a culture that disdains education? You don’t get a lot of education. When you find a group that prizes education, rewards those who get it with more opportunities, and shames those who don’t achieve it? [Quite a lot of education.](http://www.chron.com/news/article/Data-show-Nigerians-the-most-educated-in-the-U-S-1600808.php) When you have a group that disdains violence as a solution to resolving intra-group conflicts and can’t use it in inter-group conflicts, you get nonviolent groups focusing on other types of solutions. When you get a group which doesn’t disdain violence, and can make it work for them, you get violent groups. Now, a lot of behavior, intelligence, and so forth are heritable as well, but a quick look through history and the world shows that who’s the dumb brutes and who are the clever educated ones varies really, really wildly, based on the needs and conditions of the culture of the racial group, not the properties of the group itself. ---
**Author:** ![Construct](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Construct](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Construct)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/715 "2015-10-11T20:41:30Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > That may not have been the argument you were making, but the belief that environment alone is responsible for all human differences is not a strawman. It’s a reputable argument made by otherwise intelligent people such as [Stephen Gould](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mismeasure_of_Man) and is common in the dispute [over the black-white IQ gap.](http://psychology.uwo.ca/faculty/rushtonpdfs/PPPL1.pdf) > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > All human differences (including between individuals), or differences in non-superficial characteristics like intelligence between populations (not individuals)? Gould doesn’t that all human differences between individuals are from environment alone. I’m unaware of anyone who believes that, and it’s certainly not a reputable argument. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Gould may have made that argument somewhere (though I doubt it), but he certainly didn’t make it in _The Mismeasure of Man_. He didn’t say anything even remotely approaching that, in fact. > [@tomndebb](#): > > Straw man argument. Quote Gould making that claim or realize that you have neither read the book nor understood any legitimate criticism of it. > > And no one, here, particularly, has made your straw man claim that differences in intelligence are solely due to environment. > > If you cannot argue without inventing positions for your opponents, your arguments may be dismissed for the silly attempts at "gotcha"s that they are. A few months late and from the wrong source, but here’s Gould making the claim: > [@](#): > > “natural selection has almost become irrelevant” to us, the influential Harvard paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould proclaimed. “There have been no biological changes. Everything we’ve called culture and civilization we’ve built with the same body and brain.” [Source.](http://discovermagazine.com/2009/mar/09-they-dont-make-homo-sapiens-like-they-used-to) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/716 "2015-10-11T20:49:39Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > A few months late and from the wrong source, but here’s Gould making the claim: > [Source.](http://discovermagazine.com/2009/mar/09-they-dont-make-homo-sapiens-like-they-used-to) That’s a totally different claim than the one you said he made. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271/717 "2015-10-13T21:25:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s a totally different claim than the one you said he made. It sure is. Gould was saying that there had been very little evolution among _Homo Sapiens_ since Stone Age times. Which is a totally different discussion than one that addresses variation within a specie. Homo Sapiens had genetic and cultural differences 50,000 years ago. Or 100,000. Or today. That says nothing about whether the species as a whole has stayed the same or has evolved over any given time frame. It’s not hard. In fact the topic of the article is in the first sentence of the article: [INDENT]For decades the consensus view—among the public as well as the world’s preeminent biologists—has been that human evolution is over. [/INDENT] [http://discovermagazine.com/2009/mar/09-they-dont-make-homo-sapiens-like-they-used-to](http://discovermagazine.com/2009/mar/09-they-dont-make-homo-sapiens-like-they-used-to) Speaking generally I would recommend that all posters, including **Construct** , read the first paragraph of articles that they quote. That can give a good idea about what the article is addressing. We are here to fight ignorance, not promote it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shaun-king-daily-kos-writer-black-lives-matter-activist-really-white/728271.md?page=35)