# Is sheep shagger a racial slur? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 27, 2023, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sheep-shagger-a-racial-slur/986146 "2023-06-27T00:02:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sheep-shagger-a-racial-slur/986146/21 "2023-06-27T06:46:20Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Considering the same claim has been made about Australians as well, and none of it is corroborated by anyone (on the contrary, it is contested), I am guessing it’s just common in one person’s head. Count me in as another UK person who was never heard it used in the way described. We’ll happily greet friends with “you old fucker” or “you old bugger” but “shagger”?, not to my knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sheep-shagger-a-racial-slur/986146/22 "2023-06-27T07:04:03Z")
First of all, i’m a bit surprised that no one has mentioned Scotland yet. That said, my opinion is that this should be folded into the “how reprehensible do you want to be in the pit?” thread. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sheep-shagger-a-racial-slur/986146/23 "2023-06-27T07:33:18Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > When it morphs into “All those sheep shaggers must die” or “let’s beat up these sheep shaggers” or when you move the sheep shaggers into segregated neighbourhoods, or when sheep shaggers have historically been oppressed and fearful of their lives merely for being from that region. > > Hate speech =/= mere name calling. > > Iranians face race- and religious-based discrimination in the West that the modern Welsh and Alabamans do not. Whilst I would not dispute that some people have it worse than others, name-calling that is consistent, persistent, and implies that the subject is, on account of their ethnicity, in some way morally (or intellectually etc) inferior _is_ over the line for hate speech, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sheep-shagger-a-racial-slur/986146/24 "2023-06-27T07:53:02Z")
Your opinion is irrelevant. Hate speech is more than just insulting or even racist. It has to be tied to violence, either to incite new violence or to intimidate with callback to past real violence. Hell, ginger jokes are more a form of hate speech than sheep shagger ones. AFAIK, Welsh people aren’t being stabbed, sexually harrassed or forced to move houses for merely being Welsh, the way some redheads in the UK have had to. What you’ve describes is undeniably racism. _All_ racist speech isn’t hate speech, though. Some is just insult. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sheep-shagger-a-racial-slur/986146/25 "2023-06-27T07:55:07Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Whilst I would not dispute that some people have it worse than others, name-calling that is consistent, persistent, and implies that the subject is, on account of their ethnicity, in some way morally (or intellectually etc) inferior _is_ over the line for hate speech, IMO. Plus, of course, insulting people based on their race or nationality hurts the speaker as well. Racist speech is ugly, corrosive, and diminishing, and it’s a hard habit to break. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sheep-shagger-a-racial-slur/986146/26 "2023-06-27T08:07:17Z")
The [UN definition of hate speech](https://www.un.org/en/hate-speech/understanding-hate-speech/what-is-hate-speech) > _ **any kind of communication** in speech, writing or behaviour, that **attacks** or uses **pejorative** or **discriminatory** language with reference to a person or a group on the basis of **who they are** , in other words, based on their religion, ethnicity, nationality, race, colour, descent, gender or other identity factor._ I’d say the example being discussed in this thread qualifies for that definition. Your own opinion may differ. [Hate **crime**](https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/hate-crime) appears to be closer to what you’re describing. > **Any crime can be prosecuted as a hate crime** if the offender has either: > > - demonstrated hostility based on race, religion, disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity > **Or** > - been motivated by hostility based on race, religion, disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sheep-shagger-a-racial-slur/986146/27 "2023-06-27T08:29:45Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I’d say the example being discussed in this thread qualifies for that definition. Your own opinion may differ That seems to be the case and that makes the UN definition of hate speech so broad as to be meaningless. “other identity factor” being the main culprit. I know football fans who will say with absolute sincerity that being a fan of a specific team is crucial to their identity. They certainly hold it as strongly as many religious people. By the UN’s definition if they are abused because of that affiliation they have suffered “Hate Speech”. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sheep-shagger-a-racial-slur/986146/28 "2023-06-27T08:40:01Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > “other identity factor” being the main culprit. I know football fans who will say with absolute sincerity that being a fan of a specific team is crucial to their identity. “You _City_ supporter!!!” ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sheep-shagger-a-racial-slur/986146/29 "2023-06-27T08:41:36Z")
The edge cases relating to any definition are always going to be problematic; that’s a problem with definitions in general, not a specific problem with this one. Besides, why is adherence to a religion more special than football team allegiance anyway? I’m pretty sure the ‘other identity factor’ clause is there in this definition because people love to lawyer the rules to excuse the thing they want to do - eg: “Ummmm, ackshually, it’s not _technically_ racism because X is not _technically_ a race” ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sheep-shagger-a-racial-slur/986146/30 "2023-06-27T08:41:47Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > First of all, i’m a bit surprised that no one has mentioned Scotland yet. Sheep Shagger isn’t generally directed at Scots. Unless they come from a very rural area, which most Scots do not. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sheep-shagger-a-racial-slur/986146/31 "2023-06-27T08:56:02Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I’d say the example being discussed in this thread qualifies for that definition. They then immediately went on to say: _However, to date there is no universal definition of hate speech under international human rights law. The concept is still under discussion, especially in relation to freedom of opinion and expression, non-discrimination and equality._ So not exactly a rigid definition. So yes, my opinion differs. > [@Mangetout](#): > > [Hate **crime**](https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/hate-crime) appears to be closer to what you’re describing. No, a hate crime is the actual violence perpetrated. So hate speech and hate crime are linked, but the one is just the talking, the other the doing. You can have hate crimes without hate speech, and hate speech without actual hate crime attached. Hate speech is not itself a hate crime. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sheep-shagger-a-racial-slur/986146/32 "2023-06-27T09:03:25Z")
OK, and my opinion is irrelevant because? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sheep-shagger-a-racial-slur/986146/33 "2023-06-27T09:09:34Z")
It’s different from mine. Who you were replying to. So it’s irrelevant to me. I’m sure it’s super relevant to you. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sheep-shagger-a-racial-slur/986146/34 "2023-06-27T09:19:11Z")
Probably would have been quicker and easier just to say you disagree; when you went off about what hate speech _has to be_ or _is_, I foolishly imagined you were invoking some existing shared definition or description somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sheep-shagger-a-racial-slur/986146/35 "2023-06-27T09:24:16Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > “You _City_ supporter!!!” I know it seems a little flippant but it is true. Lots of people hold subjectively trivial things as very dear to them, as something critical to their identity. By the UN’s reckoning, insulting people with reference to any of those factors would be “Hate Speech”. The concept loses any credibility but honestly I’ve never found it to have much in the first place. If you are insulting someone by means of personal attack with the intention of hurting them then clearly you have some degree hate or emnity, calling it by a special name seems unnecessary. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sheep-shagger-a-racial-slur/986146/36 "2023-06-27T09:28:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Hate speech is not itself a hate crime. Depends on your jurisdiction. Some hate speech is criminalised in the UK. > **[Hate speech laws in the United Kingdom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_the_United_Kingdom)** > > Hate speech laws in England and Wales are found in several statutes. Expressions of hatred toward someone on account of that person's colour, race, sex, disability, nationality (including citizenship), ethnic or national origin, religion, gender reassignment, or sexual orientation is forbidden. Any communication which is threatening or abusive, and is intended to harass, alarm, or distress someone is forbidden. The penalties for hate speech include fines, imprisonment, or both.\[6 The Police and... ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sheep-shagger-a-racial-slur/986146/37 "2023-06-27T09:32:38Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Count me in as another UK person who was never heard it used in the way described. > We’ll happily greet friends with “you old fucker” or “you old bugger” but “shagger”?, not to my knowledge. I’ve encountered a few people who used ‘shagger’ as a familiar greeting; all in the northern part of the UK, one with an impressive speech impediment that made it sound like ‘sschyagger.’ But it not really a common turn of phrase. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sheep-shagger-a-racial-slur/986146/38 "2023-06-27T09:33:46Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > The edge cases relating to any definition are always going to be problematic; that’s a problem with definitions in general, not a specific problem with this one. I agree, and trying to define “Hate Speech” seems like a particularly pointless exercise. > [@Mangetout](#): > > Besides, why is adherence to a religion more special than football team allegiance anyway? In my view, it isn’t, the implication of the UN’s definition is that they don’t think so either. I’m happy to state that people shouldn’t be verbally insulting or attacking each other on the basis of religion _or_ sports team affiliation. I suggest that many people would consider one case much worse than the other. the UN puts them on the same level. Personally I don’t feel the need to use the term “Hate Speech” at all. for either scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sheep-shagger-a-racial-slur/986146/39 "2023-06-27T09:39:23Z")
> [@eburacum45](#): > > I’ve encountered a few people who used ‘shagger’ as a familiar greeting; all in the northern part of the UK, one with an impressive speech impediment that made it sound like ‘sschyagger.’ But it not really a common turn of phrase. Well I’m from the north and I’ve never heard it but of course it is such a regionally and linguistically diverse area. My wife comes from 5 miles away from my birthplace and has a subtle dialect and accent difference. Go 20 miles away and it can be very different indeed so I don’t doubt that it may exist as a thing in pockets, nothing would surprise me about UK verbal inventiveness… But as you say, that’s a different thing from it being “very common” ---
**Author:** ![UDS1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47774/32.png) [@UDS1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS1)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sheep-shagger-a-racial-slur/986146/40 "2023-06-27T09:47:02Z")
Also worth pointing out that “shagger” isn’t necessarily a contract of “sheep shagger”; it can be just a variation on “fucker”. Mere vulgar abuse isn’t racist, whether used offensively, jocosely or ironically, even if directed to someone of a different race. Abuse only become racist if you’re abused on the basis of some quality explicitly or implicitly imputed to you on account of your racial, national, ethnic, cultural, etc origin or identity. All of which is to say, you can’t necessarily pick a phrase and say, in the abstract, that it is or is not racist. Often the answer will depend on a number of factors — Who’s using the phrase? Of whom is it used? What’s the context? Is there an (explicit or implicit) link to racial, etc origin or identity? If it’s implicit, how strongly is it implied? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sheep-shagger-a-racial-slur/986146.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sheep-shagger-a-racial-slur/986146.md?page=3)