# Is Shodan more retarded lately, or has he maintained a consistent level of retardation all along? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 24, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shodan-more-retarded-lately-or-has-he-maintained-a-consistent-level-of-retardation-all-along/610530 "2012-01-24T20:31:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shodan-more-retarded-lately-or-has-he-maintained-a-consistent-level-of-retardation-all-along/610530/521 "2012-01-28T20:21:10Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > I think it’s a stretch to speculate any president would have prevented 9/11. > [@Me](#): > > We’ll never know with any certainty whether another presidential administration would have prevented the 9/11 attacks. We do know with certainty that the administration in office at the time clearly and demonstrably was not paying attention to the matter, in stark contrast to the one that preceded it and in defiance of the larger context of warning signs at the time. Do you disagree with what I said above? You cut it from the quote without comment. > [@](#): > > From the CIA perspective, OBL needed to be taken out for a long time (the 10 years prior to 9/11), and even though Clinton did authorize some action against him, it clearly wasn’t enough. Getting Osama bin Laden was a different thing than preventing 9/11, right? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shodan-more-retarded-lately-or-has-he-maintained-a-consistent-level-of-retardation-all-along/610530/522 "2012-01-28T20:22:50Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, posting **just** to rile people up is not acceptable. Posting **even though** it riles people up is perfectly acceptable. Because it is never the case that I post simply to be a voice of opposition rather than having a legitimate interest in a subject. (I don’t believe it is the case for **Bricker** either.) > > You are making the usual asinine mistake - equating “posting something I don’t like” with trolling. > > Regards, > Shodan The trouble is you post nonsense. Your attacks are full of rage and spit, yet don’t hit anywhere near the target. Your shrill, ideological cries aren’t decried because they are “something a poster doesn’t like”, they are decried because they make no sense and you are too much of a weenie to admit when you are wrong. You are a retard with a bullhorn. Strutting around singing your little retard song. _Herpity Derpity Roar!_ ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shodan-more-retarded-lately-or-has-he-maintained-a-consistent-level-of-retardation-all-along/610530/523 "2012-01-28T20:25:58Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, posting **just** to rile people up is not acceptable. Posting **even though** it riles people up is perfectly acceptable. Because it is never the case that I post simply to be a voice of opposition rather than having a legitimate interest in a subject. [Really?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10498965&postcount=11) > [@Shodan](#): > > I am fully aware that posting something will cause the Usual Suspects to go berserk, and still post it for the sheer entertainment value of watching the meltdowns. The question is why the moderator community has granted you immunity. Do you have naked pictures of Ed or something? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shodan-more-retarded-lately-or-has-he-maintained-a-consistent-level-of-retardation-all-along/610530/524 "2012-01-28T20:28:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, posting **just** to rile people up is not acceptable. Posting **even though** it riles people up is perfectly acceptable. Because it is never the case that I post simply to be a voice of opposition rather than having a legitimate interest in a subject. (I don’t believe it is the case for **Bricker** either.) > > You are making the usual asinine mistake - equating “posting something I don’t like” with trolling. > > Regards, > Shodan And yet in this very thread, you say otherwise: > [@Shodan](#): > > But sure, it’s his decision to leave (which I hope he reconsiders). It is my decision to stay and make fun of people like you, and foolishness like yours, instead. > > And that drives you crazy. You’re admitting that you’re not staying on the boards for rational discourse. You’re staying here to try to drive people crazy. You’re admitting that your behavior in the OP was not an honest attempt to critique a position or hold an argument, but to troll me into a response. I don’t even have to leave the thread to prove you’re full of shit. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shodan-more-retarded-lately-or-has-he-maintained-a-consistent-level-of-retardation-all-along/610530/525 "2012-01-28T21:06:34Z")
I’ll respond, but I want to point out I was addressing **IdahoMauleMan** , not **Shodan** , in my previous post. > [@Shodan](#): > > No, posting **just** to rile people up is not acceptable. Posting **even though** it riles people up is perfectly acceptable. I see, so for you it is simply inconceivable that you could somehow respond to something you disagree with without riling people up. Got it. > [@](#): > > Because it is never the case that I post simply to be a voice of opposition rather than having a legitimate interest in a subject. (I don’t believe it is the case for **Bricker** either.) Really, you’re a Romney man? I would have thought Gingrich was much more your style. Hunh, well, now I’ve learned something. > [@](#): > > You are making the usual asinine mistake - equating “posting something I don’t like” with trolling./Quote] > > Regards, > Shodan Yes, instead of of me disagreeing with a point, I “don’t like” it. That makes it much more personal, and aligns me more with the degree of emotionalism you bring to discussion. Got it. Anyway, it would appear that you are equating asinine with “posting something I don’t like”. I’m just sayin’. Meanwhile, as long as we’re talking, all friendly-like, could you name a few Usual Suspects? I’m dying to know. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shodan-more-retarded-lately-or-has-he-maintained-a-consistent-level-of-retardation-all-along/610530/526 "2012-01-28T21:20:47Z")
This thread is totally interesting and you all totally don’t look like idiots. Enjoy my humble regards, Carnalk ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shodan-more-retarded-lately-or-has-he-maintained-a-consistent-level-of-retardation-all-along/610530/527 "2012-01-28T21:23:25Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > You’re admitting that you’re not staying on the boards for rational discourse. Nope, still wrong. There are some Dopers (not you) who are capable of rational discourse. Them, I rationally discourse with. People like you, I make fun of. And much of what drives you crazy is that I do it persistently. I give back (as I have mentioned) as hard as I get it, or harder. And I am laughing while I do it. And that drives you craziest of all. Because you can’t bait me into doing something ban-worthy, or shout me down, or intimidate me into leaving, or drive me out of discussions on political topics. I continue along as merry as I please. Tough old world, ain’t it? You (and dunces like you) want a nice little cozy echo chamber where nobody challenges you, and the shit flies only one way. It’s not going to fly only one way - it’s going to fly right back at you, and then I am going to rub your face in it. > [@El\_Kabong](#): > > I see, so for you it is simply inconceivable that you could somehow respond to something you disagree with without riling people up. Got it. Nope, never said anything of the sort. Just the opposite, in fact - I am fully aware that many of my opinions are unpopular. I go ahead and post them anyway, but, again, that is not trolling. > [@](#): > > Yes, instead of of me disagreeing with a point, I “don’t like” it. That makes it much more personal, and aligns me more with the degree of emotionalism you bring to discussion. Got it. Yes, pretty much, but making it personal is your burden, not mine. > [@](#): > > Anyway, it would appear that you are equating asinine with “posting something I don’t like”. I’m just sayin’. Not for anyone fluent in English. What’s asinine is your belief that I am trolling because you don’t like what I post. > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, as long as we’re talking, all friendly-like, could you name a few Usual Suspects? I’m dying to know. Still trying this one, eh? You’re an idiot. Be content with that. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shodan-more-retarded-lately-or-has-he-maintained-a-consistent-level-of-retardation-all-along/610530/528 "2012-01-28T21:33:03Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Nope, still wrong. There are some Dopers (not you) who are capable of rational discourse. Them, I rationally discourse with. People like you, I make fun of. > > And much of what drives you crazy is that I do it persistently. I give back (as I have mentioned) as hard as I get it, or harder. > > And I am laughing while I do it. And that drives you craziest of all. Because you can’t bait me into doing something ban-worthy, or shout me down, or intimidate me into leaving, or drive me out of discussions on political topics. I continue along as merry as I please. You are admitting, then, that your behavior as outlined in the OP of this thread was trolling then, and not an attempt to add to the discussion? The funny thing is that you think you’re trolling because you’re just so good at pointing out liberal hypocrisy that it enrages us. When it’s actually the “I can’t believe I live on the same fucking planet as people this stupid” sort of rage. > [@](#): > > You (and dunces like you) want a nice little cozy echo chamber where nobody challenges you, and the shit flies only one way. It’s not going to fly only one way - it’s going to fly right back at you, and then I am going to rub your face in it. It’s funny how you’ve managed to not learn a single thing about me despite my extensive descriptions of my views and motivations, and have access to my entire posting history. An echo chamber is exactly what I don’t want. My highest cognitive priority in life is to attempt to achieve perfect skepticism - to critically evaluate all of the ideas and biases I might hold and strengthen or change my views therein. I’m one of the very few people that actually comes to this board to have my mind changed, and I have changed my mind. I came to this board originally as a strongly libertarian anti-progressive/liberal 10 years ago. And you say I want an echo chamber. Ha. It’s weird because I’m one of the relatively few here that actually can be reasoned with. I can tolerate nuance, I can honestly consider my own biases, I can listen to counterarguments with a genuine willingness to learn - because if part of my world view is defeated by something more sound, then my world view strengthens. And yet you hold me up as the prime example of the opposite. > [@](#): > > Nope, never said anything of the sort. Just the opposite, in fact - I am fully aware that many of my opinions are unpopular. I go ahead and post them anyway, but, again, that is not trolling. Yes, pretty much, but making it personal is your burden, not mine. > Not for anyone fluent in English. What’s asinine is your belief that I am trolling because you don’t like what I post. > Still trying this one, eh? I’m actually accusing you of trolling because you just admitted you were a troll at the beginning of this post. Look up. > [@](#): > > You’re an idiot. Be content with that. > > Regards, > Shodan When you post, I don’t even think you know who it is you’re posting to. You just sort of address every person as “liberal” in your mind. You clearly have no knowledge whatsoever as me as a unique poster. I don’t think your behavior on this board would change at all if literally your version of the board just said LIBERAL instead of a user name above every post. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shodan-more-retarded-lately-or-has-he-maintained-a-consistent-level-of-retardation-all-along/610530/529 "2012-01-28T21:44:45Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You (and dunces like you) want a nice little cozy echo chamber where nobody challenges you, and the shit flies only one way. It’s not going to fly only one way - it’s going to fly right back at you, and then I am going to rub your face in it. I want to address this further. It hasn’t “flown back at me”. You have never defeated me in debate. You’ve never said anything that was simply more correct or smarter than anything I’ve said. You’ve only lied and used insults. Do you think your behavior in the OP, where you just completely made up absurd strawmen arguments that weren’t even remotely related to the actual content of the thread was throwing it right back at me? Is that the best you can do? You don’t get under my skin because you’re right. I’m way, way smarter than you. I am far more intellectually honest than you. I could defeat you in any fair debate under any circumstances. No, you’re annoying because you deliberately thread shit. You lie. You derail the thread by making people address your shits and lies. You degrade the quality of this board by being here. You’re too stupid to realize how stupid you are. It’s not that no one has yet to make you do anything banworthy. You’ve done plenty that’s banworthy. It’s just that this board has a rather ridiculous moderation policy. They’re overly concerned with precedent, and they give long time members too much leniency. If someone signed up today and started posting the way you did, they’d be banned in a day. The ironic thing is that they won’t ban you because you’ve been here ruining the boards for so long that there’s no single incident where they can say “Okay, this is the last straw, you’re banned” - because your behavior has been consistently assholish that you’ve established that as your norm. Due to their moderation policies, you’ve effectively made yourself ban proof by making this board worse consistently for so long. It’s perverse. Then again, I thought that about **Dio** , so here’s hoping. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shodan-more-retarded-lately-or-has-he-maintained-a-consistent-level-of-retardation-all-along/610530/530 "2012-01-28T21:58:32Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > …People like you, I make fun of… Doper Literature 101 Mid Term essay question “Is **Shodan** ’s satirical style more reminiscent of Wilde or Swift? Discuss. Give examples.” ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shodan-more-retarded-lately-or-has-he-maintained-a-consistent-level-of-retardation-all-along/610530/531 "2012-01-28T22:03:00Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Do you disagree with what I said above? Not sure, I haven’t really looked into the hand-off between administrations. But, even though I voted for Clinton and did not vote for Bush, I think it’s pretty tough to take a complex situation like that and assign blame to Bush - I don’t personally believe any president could step into that situation and make all the right moves to prevent what happened. > [@](#): > > You cut it from the quote without comment. Yes I did, on purpose, because that statement appeared to be making the point that **Mr. Moto** was wrong, that we could have had a president that made all the right moves, detected the attack and prevented it. The other statements after that one seemed to be making the point that the Bush administration did not properly respond to the terrorism threat - which may be true - but even if true, I still don’t think they would have detected and prevented it (knowing what laws were in place to prevent information from different agencies being shared, etc.) > [@](#): > > Getting Osama bin Laden was a different thing than preventing 9/11, right? Uh…no? If we had taken out OBL in 1996, do you think 9/11 would have still happened? I think it’s easier to say that AQ’s activities would have been altered and that 9/11 would not have played out the way it did, then to say it wouldn’t have changed anything with respect to 9/11. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shodan-more-retarded-lately-or-has-he-maintained-a-consistent-level-of-retardation-all-along/610530/532 "2012-01-28T22:07:47Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > You are admitting, then, that your behavior as outlined in the OP of this thread was trolling then… No, I said just the opposite. But there is much of the problem - one of the many reasons you are incapable of rational discourse is that you cannot bring yourself to read for comprehension. > [@](#): > > I’m actually accusing you of trolling because you just admitted you were a troll at the beginning of this post. Look up. Nope, like I said, wrong again. > [@](#): > > You clearly have no knowledge whatsoever as me as a unique poster. You aren’t that unique - just another loudmouth with an inflated sense of the importance of his opinions. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shodan-more-retarded-lately-or-has-he-maintained-a-consistent-level-of-retardation-all-along/610530/533 "2012-01-28T22:08:30Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Doper Literature 101 > Mid Term essay question > > “Is **Shodan** ’s satirical style more reminiscent of Wilde or Swift? Discuss. Give examples.” More like the poor man’s Nelson Muntz. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shodan-more-retarded-lately-or-has-he-maintained-a-consistent-level-of-retardation-all-along/610530/534 "2012-01-28T22:11:02Z")
If, prior to 9/11, anyone had offered me the serious suggestion that a plot to train pilots to fly (but not take off or land) an airplane, then take over the aircraft with box cutters, and then fly the aircraft to crash into a specific target…that a plan like that was not only feasible, but would actually be mounted, and actually succeed…I probably would have thought that here was positive proof that no one should read Tom Clancy novels while stoned. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shodan-more-retarded-lately-or-has-he-maintained-a-consistent-level-of-retardation-all-along/610530/535 "2012-01-28T22:13:34Z")
Compare this: > [@Shodan](#): > > Nope, still wrong. There are some Dopers (not you) who are capable of rational discourse. Them, I rationally discourse with. People like you, I make fun of. > > And much of what drives you crazy is that I do it persistently. I give back (as I have mentioned) as hard as I get it, or harder. > > And I am laughing while I do it. And that drives you craziest of all. Because you can’t bait me into doing something ban-worthy, or shout me down, or intimidate me into leaving, or drive me out of discussions on political topics. I continue along as merry as I please. and the OP of this thread. You are admitting that your posting targetted at me in the Romney thread was not an attempt to engage in rational discourse. It was an attempt to “make fun of” me, and to drive me crazy, and that you were laughing while you did it. When what you actually did was thread shit and lie. You are describing the very act of trolling, admitting you do it, and then saying “WHAT? NO THAT’S THE OPPOSITE OF TROLLING” Are you trying to do meta-trolling now? The funny part is that you think you’re “making fun of” me, but you’re never actually said anything that’s funny or really mocking. You just sort of make up shit, try to imply I said it, and then attack that, often poorly. You are successful and shitting in threads and derailing them. No doubt you’re proud of that. But you’ve never successfully made fun of anyone. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shodan-more-retarded-lately-or-has-he-maintained-a-consistent-level-of-retardation-all-along/610530/536 "2012-01-28T22:29:40Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > Uh…no? > > If we had taken out OBL in 1996, do you think 9/11 would have still happened? > > I think it’s easier to say that AQ’s activities would have been altered and that 9/11 would not have played out the way it did, then to say it wouldn’t have changed anything with respect to 9/11. I just read about Iran’s involvement, and possibly masterminding of the attack, which I had not heard about before. But it shows they were in contact with OBL also. So it’s hard to say what the impact of taking out OBL in the 90’s would have had, previously I thought it would have disrupted their operations, but with Iran behind it, maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shodan-more-retarded-lately-or-has-he-maintained-a-consistent-level-of-retardation-all-along/610530/537 "2012-01-28T22:56:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Doper Literature 101 > Mid Term essay question > > “Is **Shodan** ’s satirical style more reminiscent of Wilde or Swift? Discuss. Give examples.” Don’t know about satire, but in the photo I saw he didn’t look anything like Olivia or Taylor. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shodan-more-retarded-lately-or-has-he-maintained-a-consistent-level-of-retardation-all-along/610530/538 "2012-01-29T02:28:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You (and dunces like you) want a nice little cozy echo chamber where nobody challenges you, and the shit flies only one way. It’s not going to fly only one way - it’s going to fly right back at you, and then I am going to rub your face in it. That’s something you’ve made up in your head. Hell, I hardly even bother to post to most political threads, and when I do, looking for an echo chamber is the furthest thing from my mind. I’m just kind of interested in why you seem to think you are somehow going to earn respect for your opinions by spewing an endless stream of seething hostility. Christ, if I was as angry as you seem to be all the time, I’d be worn out inside a week. > [@](#): > > Not for anyone fluent in English. What’s asinine is your belief that I am trolling because you don’t like what I post. You deliberately choose language, and make up straw man arguments, that are by your own admission intended to get a rise out of people. Other than feeding your own ego, what’s the point? > [@](#): > > Still trying this one, eh? Oh, yes, you’re far too clever to fall into the trap I think I’ve so cleverly laid. Er, what trap, exactly? Look, it’s a simple, straightforward question; I will not even comment on it if you ever decide to answer. It’s a phrase you use _all the time_; presumably you have someone specific in mind. Kindly name some names. That’s all I’m asking. Here’s an alternative question, if you dislike the other one so much: what, specifically, makes you not a Usual Suspect in political threads? Again, I’ll make no comment at all, just lay it on out there. > [@](#): > > You’re an idiot. Be content with that. No, actually I’m not an idiot at all. In any event, you have not built up a history that would lead anyone to give your opinion on this matter any weight. Maybe a stronger insult next time, something about my mother, perhaps, or my appearance; maybe that will get to me. You never know. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shodan-more-retarded-lately-or-has-he-maintained-a-consistent-level-of-retardation-all-along/610530/539 "2012-01-29T03:01:25Z")
Sigh. Once again. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > That’s my take as well. It is difficult to defend the indefensible. So conservative true believers respond by blurring the issues. Generally speaking, the right is more tribal than the left -though in this case it _is_ accurate to say both sides do it. As examples, I will just point to the way Republican moderates have been dismissed and drummed out of office as RINOs and Bruce Bartlett/David Frum have been sent to the cornfield. There isn’t any Ben Nelson on the right and lefties have a weird liking for counter-intuitive narrative, as often seen in Slate and the New Republic. > [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > This is-- and what you quoted-- is a lot of BS and the result of nitpicking what you want to nitpick and ignoring what you want to ignore. > [@](#): > > I think you should look again. You gave zero evidence of the “conservative true believers responding by blurring the issues because they can’t defend the indefensible”. And how could you? Not only is it a generalization, but it’s a generalization which you’ll “prove” by (1) finding those things you believe to be “indefensible” and (2) by finding someone who tries to defend that which you already consider “indefensible”. And, for what it’s worth, I did give you something. Seriously, how was I suppose to know what you were referring to? I made some substantiated remarks, and said explicitly that others were a mere assessment. Your first post wasn’t an argument, your second was a weak argument – and your third …well that was ok actually (not that I agree, but it was a real argument). Sorry to keep score, but the thread is about proper and bogus argumentation right? > [@](#): > > It is? You think a coalition-- who is probably closer to Republicans than Democrats-- responsible for voting **against** cap-and-trade, Wall Street reform, watering down HCR and who butt head with Pelosi were well liked within their party? No, you missed the point. Firstly, the blue dogs aren’t anywhere near the modern Republican party who voted last year to phase out medicare. Your characterization is way way out of date. Secondly, you are _characterizing_ a level of enmity within the Democratic party -without evidence (though I concede that it could be gathered)- while I’ve established that Republican moderates are summarily given the boot. There’s a difference, right? Under Reagan, Republicans liked to call themselves of “Big Tent”: that phrase was applied specifically to abortion. But now Republicans with highly conservative voting records who show the slightest inclination to follow the founding fathers’ framework by negotiating with the opposition-- those are primaried away. Saying that some members of a club don’t like one another is one thing. Pointing to a group that is routinely and summarily rejected from that club is another. > [@](#): > > One, the Democrats rode the WMD train, too, so let’s not pretend otherwise. …and let’s not pretend that the Bush administration didn’t oversee the worst distortion of intelligence in modern history. > [@](#): > > Two, if we’re really going to turn this into a pissing match of crazy, then I offer you three wonderful, completely fact-based, non-crazy assertions. > > [Republicans want you to die quickly.](http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0909/27726.html) > > [The Tea Party wants to hang Blacks from trees.](http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/08/rep-andre-carson-tea-party-wants-to-see-blacks-hanging-on-a-tree/) > > [Republicans want to bring back Jim Crow laws.](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/06/06/dnc-chair-wasserman-schultz-under-fire-for-jim-crow-comments/) > > I mean, if we were really going to be completely honest, when it comes to “crazy”, the Democrats really have a stranglehold on it (that and race baiting). Now I’ve already prepared myself for the barrage of comments I will get detailing how the above comments are correct, so have at it. [See? Now _that’s_ a cite! Seriously, that’s the sort of thing we’re here for. That’s why posters with a range of POVs are an addition to the board.] Here’s the problem though. There will always be hyperbole in politics. But Alan Grayson never gained any traction with his “Want you to die” claim. And that’s the difference: surveys show an incredible amount of credulity among Republicans vis a vis long form birth certificates, and the death panel smear formed the basis for a lot of conservative buzz. What you would have to show is Dems rushing to defend these characterizations -and that just didn’t happen to a significant extent. Yes, both sides have their hysterics (middle example), clowns (first example) and hyperbole (third example). The difference is that the nutters no longer get traction among dems, while on the Republican side, it is sanity which is considered unforgivable, as seen by the John Huntsman campaign. * * * Wha? The Dems have a stranglehold on racebaiting? You don’t see anything racial about Newt’s strawman assertions? I mean the one where he said that he’d debate the NAACP any time about whether getting a job is better than collecting food stamps. Hey, I can play that game too: I’ll debate Newt any time about whether marital fidelity is _profoundly_ better for American _civilization_ than being a deadbeat dad, like he was to his kids. We can have a Lincoln-Douglass debate on that one. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2012, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shodan-more-retarded-lately-or-has-he-maintained-a-consistent-level-of-retardation-all-along/610530/540 "2012-01-29T12:00:44Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > I think it’s a stretch to speculate any president would have prevented 9/11. > > From the CIA perspective, OBL needed to be taken out for a long time (the 10 years prior to 9/11), and even though Clinton did authorize some action against him, it clearly wasn’t enough. In reverse order: There’s obviously a huge difference between preventing a particular terrorist attack and taking out ObL. The Clinton Administration succeeded in preventing the Millennium attacks, for instance, but failed to get bin Laden. It’s hardly “a stretch to speculate” that “any president would have prevented 9/11.” It’s a stretch to **assume** that. But it’s hardly a stretch to conclude that a Gore Administration, continuing the antiterrorism policies of the Clinton Administration, would have had at least a decent chance of preventing the 9/11 attack. FBI agents in various locales were alarmed about these Middle Easterners who were interested in learning to fly jumbo jets, but not land them. And we had Zacarias Moussaoui and his freakin’ laptop in custody from August 16 on, with the Minneapolis FBI office begging Washington to get a FISA warrant so that they could check out the laptop’s contents. The problem was, Washington wasn’t interested. The people at the bottom had big pieces of the puzzle, but nobody at the top was very interested in that particular puzzle. And this was ten days after Bush got the infamous “Bin Laden Determined to Strike in U.S.” PDB. A Gore Administration would have been interested even _without_ the damned PDB. If a Gore Administration had gone to the FISA court on August 16 and gotten that warrant, could they have put enough of the pieces together in 25 days to foil the attack? That’s the part we’ll never know. But it’s reasonable to assume that President Gore and his national security team would have been rather forcefully sending the word down through all channels that if any part of the government knew anything that might be relevant, it should be pushed up the ladder without delay. That’s what they did at the time of the Millennium plot, and that’s what they would have done in the wake of the August 6 PDB, had it even come to that. Maybe the 9/11 plot would have succeeded despite all that. But dismissing out of hand the very real chance that a Gore Administration would have had to prevent it is, IMHO, a totally baseless piece of bullshit, and one that I’m really, really tired of seeing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shodan-more-retarded-lately-or-has-he-maintained-a-consistent-level-of-retardation-all-along/610530.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-shodan-more-retarded-lately-or-has-he-maintained-a-consistent-level-of-retardation-all-along/610530.md?page=28)