# Is skipping out on a date and leaving them with the food bill a (literal) crime? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 8, 2018, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-skipping-out-on-a-date-and-leaving-them-with-the-food-bill-a-literal-crime/821002 "2018-09-08T15:04:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-skipping-out-on-a-date-and-leaving-them-with-the-food-bill-a-literal-crime/821002/41 "2018-09-09T12:21:09Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > The possible punishment isn’t as relevant as the amount of bail: $315,000. The court apparently sees him as a dash risk. :golf clap: ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-skipping-out-on-a-date-and-leaving-them-with-the-food-bill-a-literal-crime/821002/42 "2018-09-09T12:25:05Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > On the first afternoon of my first visit to St Martin, we stopped at a lolo (a little roadside restaurant) in Grand Case on our way home from the beach. We each had five or six beers and some appetizers. I realized I’d spent most of my cash at the beach when I noticed the “NO C.C.” Sign. > > I freaked out. I told my gf I had to run back to the room for cash. It was about a twenty minute drive _and I had no idea how to get there_. Looking at a [map of Sr. Martin](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Grand+Case,+St+Martin/@18.0616589,-63.07907,13.75z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x8c0e657ea38b7063:0xa193ddccbbfa419b!8m2!3d18.1000606!4d-63.0544967) it does not seem possible to get lost. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-skipping-out-on-a-date-and-leaving-them-with-the-food-bill-a-literal-crime/821002/43 "2018-09-09T12:55:23Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Looking at a [map of Sr. Martin](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Grand+Case,+St+Martin/@18.0616589,-63.07907,13.75z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x8c0e657ea38b7063:0xa193ddccbbfa419b!8m2!3d18.1000606!4d-63.0544967) it does not seem possible to get lost. 😉 Heh. I had no map. Leaving Grand Case I had to first figure out how to get to the main road and then which way to turn. One way I’d travel 1/4 way around the island, the other was 3/4 of the way. When I reached Marigot I had to deal with a roundabout and pick the correct arm to exit. In Cole Bay a wrong turn would have spun me around. Right before Simpson Bay another roundabout with three exit choices, two of which go into the interior of the island, one of those was the one I wanted. I made all the right choices, then drove by our hotel’s ramp. Reaching Phillipsburg, I realized what I’d done and turned around. I’d had a bucket of Caribs on the beach, several Ti’ Ponch (high proof rum) on the beach, and six Presidentes at the lolo. It was as near a thing to a miracle as I’ve ever experienced. A beautiful sunrise pales in comparison. 😃 ETA: add in that the speed limit on most of these roads is 25-35 mph (signed in kph) and some of the roads are closer to goat paths. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-skipping-out-on-a-date-and-leaving-them-with-the-food-bill-a-literal-crime/821002/44 "2018-09-09T13:19:19Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Not true. You need boxes for “one person thought there was an agreement but the other didn’t”. Of core relevance to this situation. In other words there wasn’t an actual agreement. Still covered by the 2x2 box. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-skipping-out-on-a-date-and-leaving-them-with-the-food-bill-a-literal-crime/821002/45 "2018-09-09T13:47:22Z")
Since we’re using the language of contract, remember that a contract requires knowledgeable acceptance. It’s a pretty good argument to say that I didn’t assent to pay for a meal that I had no idea took place hours before I arrived and eaten by a person I have just met for the first time. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-skipping-out-on-a-date-and-leaving-them-with-the-food-bill-a-literal-crime/821002/46 "2018-09-09T19:46:48Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I made all the right choices, then drove by our hotel’s ramp. Reaching Phillipsburg, I realized what I’d done and turned around. I’d had a bucket of Caribs on the beach, several Ti’ Ponch (high proof rum) on the beach, and six Presidentes at the lolo. Making all the right choices would not involve driving under the influence. I love Lolos. Might have been there when you were doing this. Maybe I’m lucky you didn’t hit me. The locals sure are. Local max BAC is 0.05 IIRC, and the gendarmes do in fact have sobriety check points. The lucky thing is not you finding your way around. It is you not irrevocably altering someone’s life. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-skipping-out-on-a-date-and-leaving-them-with-the-food-bill-a-literal-crime/821002/47 "2018-09-09T20:06:51Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > I wonder if this guy also considers himself an incel. If a pissed off woman shoots him in the crotch, then he’d be one. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-skipping-out-on-a-date-and-leaving-them-with-the-food-bill-a-literal-crime/821002/48 "2018-09-09T22:03:13Z")
> [@Fair\_Rarity](#): > > I heard/read elsewhere that he would get there first, order and eat, then leave as soon as she’d show up and she’d get an enormous bill. I don’t know why the restaurant would make her pay for something she wasn’t even on the premises for, but maybe they figured she was in on it, part of an elaborate scheme. I think this makes all the difference. IANAL, but if they sat a a table and dined together, they entered an implicit contract with the restaurant to pay for the services they were receiving. The exact nature of that contract is what’s under discussion. But if a guest shows up after the meal, I don’t see how she (or he) could conceivably be charged with theft of service, because she didn’t receive any service. Which is not to say they couldn’t try but I don’t think they’d have a case. ---
**Author:** ![bmoak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@bmoak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoak)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-skipping-out-on-a-date-and-leaving-them-with-the-food-bill-a-literal-crime/821002/49 "2018-09-09T22:56:42Z")
This guy also has a history of dashing out of hair salons without paying. He’s also apparently a hero to the intel/red-pill/MRA crowd, if you read the comments on almost any news article about him. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-skipping-out-on-a-date-and-leaving-them-with-the-food-bill-a-literal-crime/821002/50 "2018-09-09T23:06:19Z")
> [@bmoak](#): > > This guy also has a history of dashing out of hair salons without paying. So it was a case of cut and run? ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-skipping-out-on-a-date-and-leaving-them-with-the-food-bill-a-literal-crime/821002/51 "2018-09-09T23:09:35Z")
:shakes fist at running coach: ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2018, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-skipping-out-on-a-date-and-leaving-them-with-the-food-bill-a-literal-crime/821002/52 "2018-09-09T23:09:41Z")
> [@bmoak](#): > > He’s also apparently a hero to the intel/red-pill/MRA crowd, if you read the comments on almost any news article about him. Incel or Intel? Because when I worked at Intel I knew no one this obnoxious. Not even my boss. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2018, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-skipping-out-on-a-date-and-leaving-them-with-the-food-bill-a-literal-crime/821002/53 "2018-09-10T00:15:59Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > . He obtained a free meal at expensive restaurants through false pretenses. That’s extortion. . I agree with all the other people who are “missing the point”. False pretenses is not extortion. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2018, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-skipping-out-on-a-date-and-leaving-them-with-the-food-bill-a-literal-crime/821002/54 "2018-09-10T01:45:28Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > I agree with all the other people who are “missing the point”. False pretenses is not extortion. IANAL, but that’s how the DA in California sees it. I’ve messaged an attorney friend to ask for clarification because I can see how it might amount to embezzlement instead. This guy found a way of scamming people. Maybe he thought he could get away with it for the same reason some folks here think he’s done nothing illegal. It’ll be interesting to see how a judge views it, especially as the guy has pled not guilty to all counts. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2018, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-skipping-out-on-a-date-and-leaving-them-with-the-food-bill-a-literal-crime/821002/55 "2018-09-10T03:21:19Z")
I heard back from my attorney friend re: extortion. I asked her how this guy’s actions could constitute extortion and whether they might be embezzlement instead. Here’s her answer: > [@](#): > > It’s not embezzlement because he didn’t have possession of the woman’s money. An example of embezzlement might be someone who’s the bookkeeper for a business so he originally lawfully comes into possession of the business’ money, but if he actually takes it, that becomes a crime. There’s usually a fiduciary relationship. I think it becomes extortion because the date is left holding the bag and extortion can involve the threat of public humiliation. If she didn’t pay, she would be embarrassed and possibly arrested. I realize this is just one attorney’s opinion, and I’m asking you to take my word for it she’s an attorney; however, I’m using it only to clarify the DA’s decision to prosecute it as extortion. Again, we’ll see what the judge decides. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2018, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-skipping-out-on-a-date-and-leaving-them-with-the-food-bill-a-literal-crime/821002/56 "2018-09-10T07:16:28Z")
Dining and dashing is a criminal offence in Canada, under the federal [Criminal Code](http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-81.html?txthl=food#s-364) > [@Criminal Code](#): > > **Fraudulently obtaining food, beverage or accommodation** > **364** (1) Every one who fraudulently obtains food, a beverage or accommodation at any place that is in the business of providing those things is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction. > > (2) In proceedings under this section, evidence that the accused obtained food, a beverage or accommodation at a place that is in the business of providing those things and did not pay for it and > … > (d) absconded or surreptitiously left the premises, > … > is, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, proof of fraud. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-skipping-out-on-a-date-and-leaving-them-with-the-food-bill-a-literal-crime/821002/57 "2018-09-11T00:36:51Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Dining and dashing is a criminal offence in Canada, under the federal [Criminal Code](http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-81.html?txthl=food#s-364) That is similar to the law is most U.S. states in that there must be an intent to defraud, typically making up one’s mind prior to eating that he or she is not going to pay for the meal. If the meal is cold, has hair in it, etc. and you have a genuine dispute with the owner over the bill and refuse to pay part or all of it, then that is a civil matter and not a crime. Much like shoplifting in that if you accidentally walk out of the store with an item, it is not a crime. Such intent is sometimes difficult to prove, and that is a good provision in the Canadian law that allows an assumption that if you just sneak out at the end of the meal, then that was your intention all along: not a dispute with the owner. This case is more complicated as, although the guy intended to defraud (theft by deception) it is unclear who. As others have mentioned, in this day and time, the woman cannot simply assume that the man has agreed to pay. I think that under social customs, she could reasonably assume that either: 1) he would pay, or 2) they would split the bill. However, social custom would also imply that he sticks around and they sort out the bill before they leave which makes this case interesting. Without a prior discussion, and if it turns out to be #2, I think that the law would say that she is responsible for her portion. So, it is possible that if she refuses to pay, she is contractually obligated to the restaurant for her share of the bill, but if she refuses that, then she is still not guilty of a crime. However, there is the possibility that the police aren’t as versed in the law as they should be and she spends the night in jail. In that sense, IMHO the elements of extortion are met, but I think that the prosecutor is really grasping there. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-skipping-out-on-a-date-and-leaving-them-with-the-food-bill-a-literal-crime/821002/58 "2018-09-12T17:33:40Z")
I was at a restaurant with my girl once and behind me was another young couple. It soon became apparent they were having some kind of argument – I couldn’t hear the words but the tones sure carried through. A few minutes after that our waitress did a double take an said something, “Wait! Where did…?” I turned around and there were two half-eaten dinners and nobody around. I told her what I’d sensed and also that I’d been trying _not_ to pay attention. When we left a half-hour later, nobody had made it back to that table. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-skipping-out-on-a-date-and-leaving-them-with-the-food-bill-a-literal-crime/821002/59 "2018-09-12T17:46:02Z")
It appears like it, at the very least they went in jointly to pay with a agreement between the 2. Because this was premeditated it seems beyond the jointly, one person has a emergency and has to leave type thing and into some sort of theft. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-skipping-out-on-a-date-and-leaving-them-with-the-food-bill-a-literal-crime/821002/60 "2018-09-13T09:37:01Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > It appears like it, at the very least they went in jointly to pay with a agreement between the 2. Because this was premeditated it seems beyond the jointly, one person has a emergency and has to leave type thing and into some sort of theft. Sure. Theft. Larceny. “or who shall knowingly and designedly, by any false or fraudulent representation or pretense, defraud any other person of money, labor or real or personal property” I’m not familiar with law, or with that law, so I assume that the penalty they can reasonably expect for the series of thefts is less than what they are hoping to get for extortion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-skipping-out-on-a-date-and-leaving-them-with-the-food-bill-a-literal-crime/821002.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-skipping-out-on-a-date-and-leaving-them-with-the-food-bill-a-literal-crime/821002.md?page=4)