# Is Slavery Endorsed By the Bible **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2010, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-slavery-endorsed-by-the-bible/559853 "2010-11-08T01:41:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-slavery-endorsed-by-the-bible/559853/61 "2010-11-08T18:30:05Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > This is an example of the sort of convoluted mental silliness that it takes to be a Christian. In order to reconcile an all-loving God with supporting slavery you’re pretending that slavery is _totally fun_. No, it’s an example of the convoluted silliness required to be a certain sort of Christian. There are some Christians who’ll say that not every word in the Bible is true and that some parts of it – maybe vast swaths – have to be chucked. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-slavery-endorsed-by-the-bible/559853/62 "2010-11-08T18:31:06Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > No I’m not. What I’m saying is that the Roman economy was going to transition into a modern capitalist/social democratic economy of the West to-day anytime soon, so God tolerated it as a necessary evil. There were no abolitionists back than at any rate. How can it be necessary for an omnipotent God to tolerate a necessary evil? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-slavery-endorsed-by-the-bible/559853/63 "2010-11-08T18:38:56Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > What does “some more religionist scholars” mean? Some scholars who know more about religion? Some scholars who are more religious? Some scholars who claim to be more religious? Some scholars who belong to a cult called Religionism? I can find some uses of the term “religionist” online, but the uses there aren’t very coherent and don’t fit your use of the term. Scholars who base their arguments on faith rather than evidence. Scholars who may have some legitimate academic foundation, but who still start with certain religious assumptions about the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-slavery-endorsed-by-the-bible/559853/64 "2010-11-08T18:42:18Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Is the difference that there were people who actually thought that slavery was wrong in the antebellum south? I can’t find any objection to slavery as an institution in the ancient world. Objections to the way that slaves were treated, sure, and people who didn’t want to be slaves, sure, but nobody who actually said, “Slavery is wrong.” > > I guess my question is, why would you expect Jesus or Paul or somebody like that to object to slavery? You’d expect them to have the values of their time, not today’s values, right? I don’t expect them to have different values, no, but those who believe that Jesus was God, or that God spoke through Paul should. I don’t see their lack of enlightenment about slavery as anything that makes them particularly bad, it just shows that they lacked any special, divine insight into the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-slavery-endorsed-by-the-bible/559853/65 "2010-11-08T19:57:19Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > No I’m not. What I’m saying is that the Roman economy was going to transition into a modern capitalist/social democratic economy of the West to-day anytime soon, so God tolerated it as a necessary evil. There were no abolitionists back than at any rate. God as a moral relativist has already been mentioned. But are you saying God endorsed slavery because it would be too tough to eliminate? God: Now, to show you love me, cut off your foreskin. Random believer: Okay. \ Yow, yow, yow. I wish they’d invent topical anesthetic already! God: Good work. Now, seeing that all men are created equal, free your slaves. RB: No way! That’s just too hard! Yeah, right. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-slavery-endorsed-by-the-bible/559853/66 "2010-11-08T20:31:57Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > How can it be necessary for an omnipotent God to tolerate a necessary evil? Ineffability clause. As an argument it may be cheaper than a jonesing crack whore (and about as satisfying), but at least it’s dependable. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-slavery-endorsed-by-the-bible/559853/67 "2010-11-09T01:50:56Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > So God is a moral relativist? There is no divine yardstick for good and evil if God is this flexible. > To the OP: It would be nice if you would occasionally weigh in on these topics. As I recall, we still don’t know which side of the US civil war you’d support. I am pro-Union. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-slavery-endorsed-by-the-bible/559853/68 "2010-11-09T02:05:26Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I am pro-Union. Great. Is slavery endorsed by the bible? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-slavery-endorsed-by-the-bible/559853/69 "2010-11-09T02:19:08Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Great. Is slavery endorsed by the bible? He did give his thoughts in the OP. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > My personal thoughts are that God sanctioned slavery in Classical times because the Roman economy was based on slavery and most pre-industrial economies were either slave or serf based. In addition the Classical slave system was not race based and often provided great opportunities as civil servants or teachers and in gaining freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-slavery-endorsed-by-the-bible/559853/70 "2010-11-09T04:41:27Z")
It’s not really hypocritical to prefer not to be a slave, but at the same time to not have an objection to the institution of slavery in general. By comparison, I’d prefer to be rich, but I don’t have any fundamental objection to the fact that some people are richer than me. That’s just the way the cookie crumbles. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-slavery-endorsed-by-the-bible/559853/71 "2010-11-09T04:42:35Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Actually it was condemnded. In chapter 8 of John’s Gospel, Jesus makes a comparison between living a life of sin and being a slave, and between freedom from sin and freedom from slavery. Which obviously only makes sense if the whole discourse is occuring under the assumption that enslavement is a bad thing. To the contrary; an alternative interpretation is, simply, that the two are analogous situations in that they contain slavery. You don’t require a moral standpoint on the situation to draw an equivalency; indeed, the question the Jews is not one of how the moral situation is equivalent but the practical situation. > [@](#): > > As Jesus said, “You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free,” and that carries with it the implication that being free is a good thing. It’s not an implication. Jesus comes right out and states it in his analogy; being a slave is a bad thing because a slave has no permanent place in the house or family. That’s his summation of the price of a lack of freedom. It’s not particularly impressive. Ignoring Jesus’ continued words, it still doesn’t work. That the truth will set you free only implies that the particular freedom gained through truth is a good thing. We might also say that having a family grants you responsibilty, or that freedom gives you choice; that doesn’t mean that all responsibility or all choices are necessarily good. > [@](#): > > Paul is also opposed to slavery, as for instance in Galatians chapter 3 where he declares “So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” This isn’t opposition to slavery. It is acceptance of the existence of it, nothing more; he’s saying, “In Jesus’ eyes, all of you, no matter the status others place upon you, are one in this regard”. But he does not say that that status in this life is good or bad, simply that, for the purposes of being one in Jesus, Jesus doesn’t care whether you’re a slave (or a Jew, or a Gentile, etc.). Someone might equally say “We all, slaves and free people, have kidneys.” That’s not opposition. > [@](#): > > But most important in this discussion is simply the fact that to both Jesus and the Apostles, the central fact of human existence was the equality of all humans before God, with no individual or race innately superior to any other, which on many occasions throughout history has been the basis for opposition to slavery. As pointed out, the belief in equality in some standard does not forego the exitence of or even acceptance of slavery. That these ideas have been the basis for opposition to slavery isn’t very helpful, given that there is practically no philosophy that has not been used for radically different ends at some point. And, of course, you haven’t actually proved this point with your cites thus far. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-slavery-endorsed-by-the-bible/559853/72 "2010-11-09T11:06:10Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > He did give his thoughts in the OP. Sorry, that was so outrageous I figured he must have something more to say. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-slavery-endorsed-by-the-bible/559853/73 "2010-11-09T13:20:09Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Exodus 21 mentions slavery several times. God is talking to Moses: > > Again, these are literally the words of God spoken to Moses on the mountain. He could just as easily have said “Slavery- don’t do it”. He had condemned in the same session the marriage of an aunt to her nephew, which had to hit Moses kind of hard since his parents were aunt/nephew, so He obviously wasn’t concerned with what they had been practicing already. It would seem in this case one is believing in Moses,( who is not a proven historical figure) not God, anyone can say God said something ,and some (even many) will believe it. There is no proof that God said or did anything it is all of human teaching,writing and thought! The Bible has no more proof that it is the word of God than the Koran! The Bible writers are just human beings with their own ideas. Some may want slavery(as some people do today) many do not! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-slavery-endorsed-by-the-bible/559853/74 "2010-11-09T13:28:53Z")
Many people are mental slaves, either taught through fear of going to a Hell or by guilt. Polititicians, and many religions use this to keep people in line,or follow their ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-slavery-endorsed-by-the-bible/559853/75 "2010-11-09T16:57:41Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It’s not really hypocritical to prefer not to be a slave, but at the same time to not have an objection to the institution of slavery in general. By comparison, I’d prefer to be rich, but I don’t have any fundamental objection to the fact that some people are richer than me. That’s just the way the cookie crumbles. While I agree with this in general, I’d say it’s hypocritcal for a Christian to have such beliefs. Consider Matthew 7:12 – the Golden Rule. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-slavery-endorsed-by-the-bible/559853/76 "2010-11-09T19:26:56Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Sorry, that was so outrageous I figured he must have something more to say. It’s a fairly mainstream Protestant Christian concept called “progressive revelation” which is also, and usually, used to explain why Jesus didn’t come earlier than he did. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-slavery-endorsed-by-the-bible/559853/77 "2010-11-09T20:09:05Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > It would seem in this case one is believing in Moses,( who is not a proven historical figure) not God, anyone can say God said something ,and some (even many) will believe it. There is no proof that God said or did anything it is all of human teaching,writing and thought! The Bible has no more proof that it is the word of God than the Koran! > > The Bible writers are just human beings with their own ideas. Some may want slavery(as some people do today) many do not! You’re preaching to the choir in my case and that of many others here, but to most Christians Moses _was_ a real figure and one who spoke directly with and took dictation from God. Proceeding from the notion that he was divinely inspired, those passages would imply God endorsed slavery at least within parameters, for He could easily have called it abomination as He labeled many other things. > [@monavis](#): > > Many people are mental slaves, either taught through fear of going to a Hell or by guilt. [Butterfly McQueen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_McQueen#Quotes), is that you? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-slavery-endorsed-by-the-bible/559853/78 "2010-11-09T22:37:36Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > To the contrary; an alternative interpretation is, simply, that the two are analogous situations in that they contain slavery. You don’t require a moral standpoint on the situation to draw an equivalency; indeed, the question the Jews is not one of how the moral situation is equivalent but the practical situation. Huh? Jesus certainly wanted people to be free from sin. If he drew an equivalency between sin and slavery then we can draw the conclusion that Jesus wanted people to be free from slavery as well. But regardless, some people in this thread started by flatly stating that Jesus never spoke out in opposition to slavery. Now we’ve seen that He did. If you want to backtrack to the stance that he said it but in a way that’s not phrased correctly or “not particularly impressive”, so what? I’m sure the hundreds of millions of people who have been set free because of what Jesus and the Apostles taught will take it, even if folks on an internet message board centuries or millenia later do criticize the wording. > [@](#): > > That these ideas have been the basis for opposition to slavery isn’t very helpful, given that there is practically no philosophy that has not been used for radically different ends at some point. And, of course, you haven’t actually proved this point with your cites thus far. It seems quite helpful to me, and again, probably for the great many people who became free because of it. As others have pointed out, slavery was universal in all civilizations in ancient times. It was simply a fact of life that, once a civilization became orderly enough that some people could benefit from holding slaves, they held slaves. In many places slavery persisted for thousands of years, and during all that time there was no record of anyone showing up and saying that slavery was bad because humans should be free. The institution of humans owning humans was as fully accepted as that of humans owning animals. So as far as I know, Jesus and the Apostles and other early Christians were bringing something wholly new into the world when they advanced the philosophy that all people should be free and slavery was a bad thing. Christian civilization became the first civilization that did not permit slavery. So you can argue, I suppose, that it’s a fantastic coincidence that Jesus opposed slavery and that Christian civlization was the first to get rid of slavery, but I still suspect a logical connection between the two. > [@](#): > > If you truly believed a law was unjust turning him in or encouraging him to turn himself in run counter to your interest. By that logic you should be telling Rosa Parks to settle herself down. Not a valid comparison. In some cases, civil disobedience has a chance of making a positive impact against an unjust law, and in other cases not. But nonetheless each individual must choose whether he or she wants to engage in it and bear the punishment or not. > [@](#): > > Dio answered this for me. Well no, Dio incorrectly stated on many occasions that Jesus never changed the OT Law, but Jesus did on many occasions, such as when he did healing and other work on the Sabbath and urged his followers to do likewise. However, we’re discussing the relevance of Matthew 5:17-18 to this thread, and the [truth](http://setapartplace.org/2010/04/24/commentary-on-matthew-517-20/) about what Jesus meant in those passages is well enough known that I’m not sure who exactly you’re hoping to fool. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-slavery-endorsed-by-the-bible/559853/79 "2010-11-09T22:47:13Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Huh? Jesus certainly wanted people to be free from sin. If he drew an equivalency between sin and slavery then we can draw the conclusion that Jesus wanted people to be free from slavery as well. He didn’t say he wanted people to be free from owning slaves. he did not admionish the Roman Centaurion for owning a catamite, for instance, so he must not have thought owningslaves was a sin. > [@](#): > > But regardless, some people in this thread started by flatly stating that Jesus never spoke out in opposition to slavery. Now we’ve seen that He did. Not once. > [@](#): > > Well no, Dio incorrectly stated on many occasions that Jesus never changed the OT Law, but Jesus did on many occasions, such as when he did healing and other work on the Sabbath and urged his followers to do likewise. However, we’re discussing the relevance of Matthew 5:17-18 to this thread, and the [truth](http://setapartplace.org/2010/04/24/commentary-on-matthew-517-20/) about what Jesus meant in those passages is well enough known that I’m not sure who exactly you’re hoping to fool. Jesus never once said that Mosaic law invalid. He sometimes took creative interpretations of it, or cited precedent for breaking in times of need, but he also said emphatically that ever letter of it was still valid. The apologist commentary you link to is not a cite, it’s just apologist commentary. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-slavery-endorsed-by-the-bible/559853/80 "2010-11-09T22:50:55Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He didn’t say he wanted people to be free from owning slaves. he did not admionish the Roman Centaurion for owning a catamite, for instance, so he must not have thought owningslaves was a sin. Cite that the Centurion’s beloved servant was a catamite, please? So we’re clear, I haven’t changed my distaste for rhetorical question. Does the original Greek use a word suggesting that, or are you merely drawing a conclusion because the slave is described as _beloved_? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-slavery-endorsed-by-the-bible/559853.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-slavery-endorsed-by-the-bible/559853.md?page=5)