# Is solar powered energy reaching maturity or is it in its infancy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 24, 2017, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-solar-powered-energy-reaching-maturity-or-is-it-in-its-infancy/794505 "2017-08-24T01:13:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-solar-powered-energy-reaching-maturity-or-is-it-in-its-infancy/794505/61 "2017-11-26T16:03:13Z")
> [@XT](#): > > \ I’ve seen similar proposals using water and gravity systems (i.e. pump water up to the top of a tower during the day, then at night allow the water to come back down through a turbine, producing electricity).\ Pumped Hydroelectric Energy Storage (PHES) [Utilizing Current Infrastructure in Colorado](https://www.colorado.edu/engineering/energystorage/files/PHES_Util_CO_Infrstrctr_Levine_Oct8-2007.htm) ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-solar-powered-energy-reaching-maturity-or-is-it-in-its-infancy/794505/62 "2017-11-26T16:15:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Who would have the authority to do such a thing? obviously, the Nations in which these deserts exist. They could either preserve their desserts and continue living in abject poverty, or make trillions of dollars in electricity. Solar power could be the new oil. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-solar-powered-energy-reaching-maturity-or-is-it-in-its-infancy/794505/63 "2017-11-26T16:22:38Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > obviously, the Nations in which these deserts exist. They could either preserve their desserts and continue living in abject poverty, or make trillions of dollars in electricity. > Solar power could be the new oil. You have just pointed out why it obviously can’t happen any time soon. That’s like saying “The best solution to migrating off this planet is for all the nations of the world to put aside their differences and pool their resources on a single effort…”. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-solar-powered-energy-reaching-maturity-or-is-it-in-its-infancy/794505/64 "2017-11-26T16:29:46Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > They could either preserve their desserts and continue living in abject poverty But then at least they’d have a lot of desserts. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-solar-powered-energy-reaching-maturity-or-is-it-in-its-infancy/794505/65 "2017-11-26T16:35:26Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > But then at least they’d have a lot of desserts. That depends on the dessert. Twinkies will last a couple months, but pudding is good for a day or two in the fridge before it skins up. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-solar-powered-energy-reaching-maturity-or-is-it-in-its-infancy/794505/66 "2017-11-26T18:53:29Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > But then at least they’d have a lot of desserts. [Doon: Dessert planet.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Lampoon%27s_Doon) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-solar-powered-energy-reaching-maturity-or-is-it-in-its-infancy/794505/67 "2017-11-26T19:00:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That depends on the dessert. Twinkies will last a couple months, but pudding is good for a day or two in the fridge before it skins up. [That’s a Big Twinkie…](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V13CZnUCOaQ) ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-solar-powered-energy-reaching-maturity-or-is-it-in-its-infancy/794505/69 "2017-11-26T20:34:48Z")
reported ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-solar-powered-energy-reaching-maturity-or-is-it-in-its-infancy/794505/70 "2017-11-29T17:49:02Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > [Doon: Dessert planet.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Lampoon%27s_Doon) LORNA Doone. [![](https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71tF8YvJZYL._SL1500_.jpg) ](https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71tF8YvJZYL._SL1500_.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-solar-powered-energy-reaching-maturity-or-is-it-in-its-infancy/794505/71 "2017-11-29T17:55:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You have just pointed out why it obviously can’t happen any time soon. That’s like saying “The best solution to migrating off this planet is for all the nations of the world to put aside their differences and pool their resources on a single effort…”. Who says it can’t happen anytime soon? The robots would be self-replicating, meaning that they just need sand and sunlight to turn the entire desert into a giant solar-field, so you’d only have to build a few robots by factory, the rest would build themselves. And as I’ve explained, only 1/50,000th of that area is needed to supply current energy-needs. Likewise, the R&D into such energy will _enable_ off-world colonization, by doing the same to other planets like the moon and Mercury, Mars etc. Solar-powered ships are even possible to get there. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-solar-powered-energy-reaching-maturity-or-is-it-in-its-infancy/794505/72 "2017-11-29T18:05:12Z")
“I’m gonna put robots in everybody’s deserts and transform them into solar-fields!” Response: “You’re gonna do what to what without asking permission of the countries that own that land? See you in prison…if you’re lucky.” That simple enough for you, **SarahWitch**? ---
**Author:** ![ZonexandScout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zonexandscout/32/544_2.png) [@ZonexandScout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZonexandScout)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-solar-powered-energy-reaching-maturity-or-is-it-in-its-infancy/794505/73 "2017-11-29T18:05:53Z")
I had skipped over this thread, but then had a conversation this morning with a friend of mine who is very pro-solar (and pretty knowledgeable). He was quoting costs per KWh and improvements in panel efficiency. I finally just asked him, “OK. For the sake of argument, let’s assume that solar panels are twice as efficient as they are currently and that they are totally free. Free panels, free installation, free inverters, etc. They just magically appear when needed. So, the problems you have to deal with are storage, transmission, time of day usage, geographic location, and so forth.” I was a bit surprised at how little thought he had given to this side of the issue. (This is not intended to be a hijack, just emphasizing what some other posters have already pointed out.) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-solar-powered-energy-reaching-maturity-or-is-it-in-its-infancy/794505/74 "2017-11-29T20:07:29Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > Who says it can’t happen anytime soon? The robots would be self-replicating, meaning that they just need sand and sunlight to turn the entire desert into a giant solar-field, so you’d only have to build a few robots by factory, the rest would build themselves. This is similar to the thread in IMHO. To respond in order, we don’t have self replicating machines and aren’t close to them at this point, you’d be causing significant environmental harm in the desert biomes by building these things on that sort of scale and you can’t get the power from them to where you need it since we the loss would be huge from, say, Arizona to Washington State or the mid-west, let alone Chicago or New York. And you’d still have that little issue that the sun tends to go down every night (which is why we call it ‘night’). And to build out the grid alone (assuming you could build one that has less loss over distance than the current one) is going to take more than sunlight, sand and dragon wishes and unicorn tears. To solve the night issue is equally going to take more than sand, sun and dreams. And even to build the panels with magic robots will take more than sand, sun and magic tech, unless you plan to build the entire structure out of glass too, which probably isn’t going to work out that well. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-solar-powered-energy-reaching-maturity-or-is-it-in-its-infancy/794505/75 "2017-11-29T20:15:14Z")
> [@ZonexandScout](#): > > I had skipped over this thread, but then had a conversation this morning with a friend of mine who is very pro-solar (and pretty knowledgeable). He was quoting costs per KWh and improvements in panel efficiency. I finally just asked him, “OK. For the sake of argument, let’s assume that solar panels are twice as efficient as they are currently and that they are totally free. Free panels, free installation, free inverters, etc. They just magically appear when needed. So, the problems you have to deal with are storage, transmission, time of day usage, geographic location, and so forth.” I was a bit surprised at how little thought he had given to this side of the issue. (This is not intended to be a hijack, just emphasizing what some other posters have already pointed out.) These are valid questions. As I explained, only 1/60,000th of the world’s deserts are needed to supply the world’s energy-needs, by converting them to solar fields; and if you assert that panels were twice as efficient, then it would only require 1/120,000th. Meanwhile ground-based salt-batteries are fairly cheap to store power; but more importantly, superconducting grids are easy to make from desert sand, which is mainly silicon and carbon. So self-replicating robots could turn deserts into a global superconducting solar-powered electrical grid. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-solar-powered-energy-reaching-maturity-or-is-it-in-its-infancy/794505/76 "2017-11-29T20:18:17Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > These are valid questions. As I explained, only 1/60,000th of the world’s deserts are needed… Approximately how much land would that be? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-solar-powered-energy-reaching-maturity-or-is-it-in-its-infancy/794505/77 "2017-11-29T20:18:49Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > These are valid questions. As I explained, only 1/60,000th of the world’s deserts are needed to supply the world’s energy-needs, by converting them to solar fields; and if you assert that panels were twice as efficient, then it would only require 1/120,000th. > Meanwhile ground-based salt-batteries are fairly cheap to store power; but more importantly, superconducting grids are easy to make from desert sand, which is mainly silicon and carbon. > So self-replicating robots could turn deserts into a global superconducting solar-powered electrical grid. Cite? For, like, any of this? I feel like I deserve a breakfast at Milliways, since when someone makes this many unsupported incredible claims it’s time to eat! ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-solar-powered-energy-reaching-maturity-or-is-it-in-its-infancy/794505/78 "2017-11-29T20:25:03Z")
> [@XT](#): > > This is similar to the thread in IMHO. To respond in order, we don’t have self replicating machines Yes, we DO. > **[Researchers build a robot that can reproduce | Cornell Chronicle](https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2005/05/researchers-build-robot-can-reproduce)** > > One of the dreams of both science fiction writers and practical robot builders has been realized, at least on a simple level: Cornell University researchers have created a machine that can build copies of itself. There just isn’t much use for them yet, but obviously supplying 100% of the world’s energy-needs with renewable clean energy, would provide a definite market-demand. > [@](#): > > you’d be causing significant environmental harm in the desert biomes by building these things on that sort of scale I already explained you’d only need to convert 1/60,000th of the world’s deserts in order to supply 100% of the world’s current energy-needs. Not much room for harm there. > [@](#): > > and you can’t get the power from them to where you need it since we the loss would be huge from, say, Arizona to Washington State or the mid-west, let alone Chicago or New York. Superconducting networks and ground/ocean-based salt-batteries could transfer and store power as needed. It just wasn’t necessary before, due to local powerplants operating 24/7 on coal, nuclear etc. > [@](#): > > And you’d still have that little issue that the sun tends to go down every night (which is why we call it ‘night’). No, it goes to a different part of the world, we call that “time-zones.” Superconducting networks can cross time-zones; we already do that from Texas to California. > [@](#): > > And to build out the grid alone (assuming you could build one that has less loss over distance than the current one) is going to take more than sunlight, sand and dragon wishes and unicorn tears. No, you really don’t. Silicon, carbon, solar energy and seawater are really all you need, in addition to\* existing\* robotics. > [@](#): > > To solve the night issue is equally going to take more than sand, sun and dreams. And even to build the panels with magic robots Cornell U. is not Hogwarts, dear. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-solar-powered-energy-reaching-maturity-or-is-it-in-its-infancy/794505/79 "2017-11-29T20:29:51Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Cite? For, like, any of this? I feel like I deserve a breakfast at Milliways, since when someone makes this many unsupported incredible claims it’s time to eat! Spoon-fed in a high chair, more like. I’m not going to educate you in a debate, while you spit up all over me. This is standard state-of-the-art, Google is your friend. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-solar-powered-energy-reaching-maturity-or-is-it-in-its-infancy/794505/80 "2017-11-29T20:31:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Approximately how much land would that be? Less than 400 square kilometers. Total. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-solar-powered-energy-reaching-maturity-or-is-it-in-its-infancy/794505/81 "2017-11-29T20:37:53Z")
> [@SarahWitch](#): > > Yes, we DO. > [http://news.cornell.edu/stories/2005](http://news.cornell.edu/stories/2005)…-can-reproduce > There just isn’t much use for them yet, but obviously supplying 100% of the world’s energy-needs with renewable clean energy, would provide a definite market-demand. So, in 2005 Cornell built a prototype? That’s what you have to demonstrate that we do indeed have self-replicating robots? Kind of taking a long time to catch on, don’t you think? > [@](#): > > I already explained you’d only need to convert 1/60,000th of the world’s deserts in order to supply 100% of the world’s current energy-needs. Not much room for harm there. Even assuming your claim is true (which you haven’t actually provided a cite for btw), you are talking about 100’s of square miles of panels, not to mention the infrastructure to support it and, you know, get the power out of there to where folks live, which generally isn’t in the middle of the desert. Lots of room for harm there. > [@](#): > > Superconducting networks and ground/ocean-based salt-batteries could transfer and store power as needed. Yeah, except that superconducting power grids don’t exist at any sort of usable scale and cost the world. I don’t believe that salt based (sodium/lithium?) can scale up to store the energy needed and would have a huge environmental impact and cost the world as well. So, that’s two worlds worth of costs, even with magic robots that don’t currently exist. > [@](#): > > No, it goes to a different part of the world, we call that “time-zones.” Superconducting networks can cross time-zones; we already do that from Texas to California. We don’t’ have superconducting networks and as far as I know, no one is even thinking about putting one in as the tech isn’t close to being ready for primetime. You’d need to start with a cheap room temperature superconducting material, and, again, afaik, one hasn’t been found. Feel free to provide cites that we could put in such a network today or even 10 years from now. Then we could talk about what it would cost to put in such a system worldwide and crossing those ocean thingies that also seem to separate many ‘time-zones’. 😛 > [@](#): > > No, you really don’t. Silicon, carbon, solar energy and seawater are really all you need, in addition to existing robotics. Cite? Sorry, but current energy grids as well as theoretical superconducting ones take more than ‘Silicon, carbon, solar energy and seawater’ and we don’t currently have magic robots to build theoretical systems either. > [@](#): > > Cornell U. is not Hogwarts, dear. Yeah, they built that prototype in 2005. How many production systems have they built so far? All of the stuff you are peddling here is closer to Hogwarts than Cornell. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-solar-powered-energy-reaching-maturity-or-is-it-in-its-infancy/794505.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-solar-powered-energy-reaching-maturity-or-is-it-in-its-infancy/794505.md?page=5)