Is stage hypnosis real?

Factual Questions
41

I think this is the key. Some people are told to forget what happened to them on stage, and they later claim to have forgotten those events. Other people are told to forget a single number, and later claim to have been genuinely perplexed by their inability to count.

I don’t CARE whether it’s a physiological phenomenon or a cultural one, or if you can accomplish the same thing through social pressure (like the famous Asch experiment) or whatever other technique. I don’t care whether hypnosis is a single, objectively identifiable phenomenon, distinct from other states, or if it’s just people letting go. Or rather, I do care, but all those questions are secondary to WHETHER THERE IS A PHENOMENON TO BE EXPLAINED. If the people who claim to have forgotten what happened or how to count are simply lying because they were selected to be those who would be very reluctant to spoil the performer’s show, that is a very different state of affairs than if they ACTUALLY FORGET SOMETHING because they didn’t want to spoil the show. Researchers who claim hypnosis doesn’t exist seem to think that those are the same thing.

From what I’ve read, I think it’s clear that hypnosis, including stage hypnosis, is a real phenomenon that does much of what it claims. It appears to be a social phenomenon, not a neurological one. It appears to be an exaggerated and artificial extension of social pressure that people react to in similar but less obvious ways every day. But it does appear to be real.

It is often said that people will not do anything under hypnosis that they wouldn’t do otherwise - that you couldn’t make a moral person shoot someone, for example. I’d be interested in knowing what the basis of this is. Plenty of experiments have shown that people will deliver what they believe to be potentially lethal electrical shocks, simply because a man in a white coat tells them to, so I don’t think what “they wouldn’t do otherwise” is a clearly defined domain.

42

It all depends what you mean by the terms ‘hypnosis’ and ‘real’.

Let’s start with stage hypnosis. A very small number of stage hypnotists use or have used ‘plants’ or ‘stooges’ (people who you think are just members of the audience, but who are actually in on the act and know what to do). But the vast majority do not, chiefly because there is no need. All that happens in a stage hypnosis act is that the hypnotist gives people ideas and suggestions, and those people go along with the ideas and suggestions, to a greater or lesser extent.

The skill and talent of the hypnotist consists of devising a good show, creating the right balance of apparent mystery and good fun suitable for his audience, presenting it well and keeping things moving. He also needs the knowledge and experience to knowing deal with people during a live show, ranging all the way from those who never go along with the suggestions to those who are, if anything, a little TOO suggestible.

This is why hypnosis acts work in the same way - the hypnotist start with simple suggestions that everyone tries, and he works with those who seem to be most responsive. This sifting process is repeated until he can do the most ‘advanced’ and impressive routines with the most suggestible people of all. In this context, ‘most suggetible’ simply means ‘the person who, when given a suggestion, produces the most entertaining and memorable response and behaviour’.

There is no such thing as a hypnotic trance involved, there is no mind control, and no-one is being made to do something they don’t want to do.

Clinical hypnosis is slightly different, since it’s not a form of entertainment. It’s supposed to be a form of therapy that can help in many different ways to do with changing attitudes and moods to overcoming fears and bad habits. It is certainly true that many people go for a ‘hypnotherapy’ treatment and report a benefit of one kind or another. However, this is only because clinical hypnosis is one instance of what is known as ritual magic. So long as the person who goes along to the session believes they are receiving an authentic hypnosis ‘treatment’, it doesn’t matter what the hypnotist actually does or what the hypnotherapy is seen to consist of - the results will be exactly the same when assessed in the long term. It’s the same with acupuncture and many similar forms of therapy. If the acupuncturist were to put the needles in all the ‘wrong’ places, it wouldn’t make any difference to the reported results, so long as the ritual and the belief were maintained.

It’s the belief in the ritual that is important. For some reason that we don’t fully understant, these kinds of rituals CAN help SOME people to help themselves… to modify their outlook or attitude, to modify their behaviour, or in some cases to get more from the body’s limited but nonetheless amazing ability to heal and repair itself.

Milton Erickson was a very influential figure in the history of clinical hypnosis, although some of his theories are also used and exploited by stage hypnotists these days. When it comes to tales and reports about Erickson’s abilities and achievements, it can be hard for the non-expert to separate the mundane from the marvellous, and the wheat from the chaff.

I have no doubt that Milton was able to ‘induct’ people very quickly (make them relax or sleep or respond to other suggestions) and in a way that may seem impressive or amazing, but lots of other people can do it too. I don’t specialise in hypnosis routines in my work, but even I have learned some rapid induction techniques. In my world, of magicians, mindreaders, hypnotists and entertainers, we openly talk about ‘rapid induction’ techniques all the time. They are very easy to learn and apply, and yes, they can look very startling.

People who work in hypnosis/hypnotherapy and related therapeutic fields tend to hear many claims made about Erickson’s theories and techniques. Some of these claims seem to stand up to scrutiny, while others may seem somewhat exaggerated to a more skeptical eye. Such factors as inaccurate reportage, multiple re-tellings, unhelpful simplification and some traces of ‘hero worship’ exaggeration may also cloud the true picture a little.

The entertainer referred to in the OP, seen on TV making people ‘accept’ blank pieces of paper as money, is Derren Brown, a hugely successful star of British stage and TV known for his ‘psychological’ style of magic and mindreading. The routine referred to in the OP has nothing whatsoever to so with hypnosis. It was a trick, but that’s all I can fairly say about it.

43

Glad you popped in, ianzin. I’d guess you probably have more experience with this sort of thing than anyone else here.

So what about the people who seem to experience (and report) dramatic subjective effects like forgetting how to count or falling asleep at a word. Are these real effects in the sense that the individual subjects themselves (for whatever reason) have or believe themselves to have forgotten how to count, fallen asleep involuntarily, etc.?

44

Good point. The best way to define it might be: if you imagine something, your body will respond as if it was actually there.

For example, sit back in your chair, try to relax. Close your eyes and imagine you are sitting in a classrom. The teacher walks in, she has nice, long, manicured fingernails. She walks up to the chalkboard and drags her fingernails down the board.

Did you body have any reaction at all to that? Most people will cringe, or feel some kind of reaction. That is hypnosis…nobody actually scratched a chalkboard, yet your body reacted. If you relax enough and you let yourself imagine something in great detail, your body will think it is real and react.

The stage hypnotist is good at getting people to relax and use their imagination. That, plus a great stage presence and the ability to put on a show for an hour is all there is to it.

45

Back in the late '80s/early '90s I worked at a comedy club, and there was a hypnotist we booked a couple times a year. I can verify that he did NOT use plants. His volunteers were different each night and were actual audience members. He’d start with about 10 people and usually end up with 4 or 5 who turned out to be the most entertaining subjects and he’d send the rest back to their seats one by one.

I saw his act enough times to report that in my opinion these folks were not just “playing along” but truly believed at the time that they were in whatever situation they were told.

One night when we had a small crowd, I was asked to go up and help fill out the chairs. I tried to be as open as possible to the experience. During the initial hypnosis I did become very relaxed. “Sleepy” isn’t quite the right word, but I’d say I felt tranquil and peaceful. It was pretty nice, actually. I felt myself sliding toward a dreamlike state – but I never did quite get there. When the hypnotist told us all to open our eyes and see that we were sitting on a warm sunny beach, I opened my eyes to find I was sitting in a chair on a comedy club stage. I looked at him and shrugged, and he sent me off.

So I can’t tell you that I was actually hypnotized. But I can tell you that I definitely felt something happening, and that I believe the people left on stage were in no way faking it. The closest I can come to describing it is that they were coaxed into something akin to a dream, at which point the hypnotist was able to feed them the content of the dream.

46

Derren Brown admits to using a mixture of illusion, hypnotism, misdirection, psychology and mind tricks - and repeatedly denies using patsies or plants.

The ‘blank money’ trick is particularly intriguing to me in that it seems to rely on Derren spinning a yarn to the cashier, a very innocuous sounding story about nothing important that is timed to culminate with the words ‘It’s fine… Take it… Take it, there’s no problem.’ just as he hands over his fake money. Whether this is the entirety of the trick, I don’t know, but I’d be interested in seeing further studies into the phenomenon.

47

There was also one where he got a cashier at a racetrack to pay out on a losing ticket. I’d be particularly interested in that one. If anyone knows, PM me. We don’t want this becoming too widespread.

48

The most interesting of the Mythbusters tests was of memory. Jamie and Adam staged an incident, then had the others try to recall details, first without and then with the aid of hypnosis. They all did notably better after hypnosis.

They had a skeptical attitude to hypnosis and most of the earlier hypnotic tricks they tried really didn’t work and they had no hesitation in saying so. I don’t doubt that on the memory test they would not have been lying, and would generally have tried to remember everything they possibly could during the first attempt, without hypnosis. Using hypnosis they were able to remember really quite impressive items of additional detail.

So it seems to me likely that hypnosis can do more than just get people to do things that they could do, but ordinarily consciously restrain themselves from doing.

I suppose probably what the hypnosis did here was probably just get the build team into a state where they were relaxed and focussed and not trying to hard, which just allowed their memories to work better. Nothing magical. Useful and impressive nonetheless.

49

I don’t think this will really help, but I was hypnotized on stage years ago during an entertainer’s show.

It was mostly a good excuse to act out. For example, the hypnotist suggested that I would hear a certain phrase when he touched his brow. There should be no confusion - I didn’t actually hear the suggested phrase, but I acted as if I did in an entertaining manner (such as checking under my hat for the source of the little voice.) It was fun, and I wouldn’t really say I was faking it, but neither would I say I was unaware of what was going on or acting against my will in any way. I certainly remember it very clearly.
I certainly haven’t added much to what other posters have had to say, but there ya go.

Thanks ianzin for a particularly insightful post.

50

Sorry, but you are still missing the point. There is no ‘phenomenon’, and nothing to ‘study’.

Suppose you saw a stereotypical magician doing quite a good ‘sawing a lady in half’ illusion. Would you think there was any ‘phenomenon’ to ‘study’? Would you imagine that if we just had enough of the performer’s insight into dividing human bodies and restoring them, that we could all learn to do it in everyday life? Of course not. In fact, you would say this is absurd.

Ditto with Derren’s television tricks. He does not use plants or stooges, but nor should you pay too much attention to claims that there is much psychology involved. It’s a trick. What’s more, a very smart trick devised for television and intended to look good on television, which it does.

If you want to know how it’s done, study the branch of magic called mentalism, and in a few years’ time you will know the answer.

Derren and his team of advisors/assistants are very good at thinking up these kinds of baffling demonstrations, either for TV or for his live theatre shows (which are truly excellent). But as Derren is the first to admit, what you are seeing is a trick.

Not real. No phenomenon. Nothing to study.

51

So is there something to study or not?

52

What would be a good starting place for someone who wants to learn more about mentalism? Can you recommend any good books on the subject?

53

  1. Join a local magic society and try to meet other people who are into mentalism (mind-reading magic).

  2. Buy a book by Tony Corinda called ‘13 Steps to Mentalism’. This is your basic text book. It won’t tell you how Derren does his stuff, but it’s a good start. Lots of magic shops (physical or online) can supply this book.

  3. Perform some shows, even if it’s just for friends or at the office party. Performing experience is the best teacher, and you will learn so much about how mentalism actually works in practice.

The rest will just follow naturally, and it does take time.

54

Thanks, ianzin.

55

There is no psychological phenomenon to study. There are techniques used to create the appearance of a psychological phenomenon which would need to be studied in order to be performed. ianzin didn’t contradict himself in the way you are suggesting.

56

:smiley: I really stupidly neglected the smiley. I do wish someone would provide a simple explanation of what is going on with some of these stunts, such as the blank paper money, etc.

58

I’m not saying that didn’t happen, but typically people who are hypnotized do not block out or have amnesia about the experience. They aren’t actually asleep.

59

My sister and I were called on stage at a nightclub act in Honolulu. We certainly were not plants. I had no expectation that I would be called on stage, and recall having a bit of stage fright when asked. I didn’t “feel” hypnotized (which I’ve since learned is typical).

The hypnotist had gone through the audience and screened people. With me, he asked me to smile broadly and then stop. I’ve since learned that sudden cessation of laughter, at direction, is something often done under hypnosis.

I can’t speak for others, but I never felt like I was doing anything because I was hypnotized. I knew I was onstage in a show. He asked me to do things, so I did them. I wasn’t “faking,” I was just cooperating with his requests.

He never did anything that challenged my objective reality - liking making me forget something, or tell me I couldn’t do something, so I really don’t know if I was “hypnotized.” I wish he had done that.

I’ve always been fascinated by hypnotism. I stumbled across a YouTube video recently (Anthony Galie) and been reading more about it. I’m thinking about taking a course. I’m in DC and there are two seemingly reputable schools near me. Not cheap… $2000 - $2500.

60

The much-maligned Julian Jaynes wrote about hypnotism in “Origins of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind.” He surveyed the history of hypnotism and concluded that because methods and effects varied over time, hypnotism was not a real mental state. He described casually mentioning in one of his classes that one known effect of hypnosis was tingling in the right arm (or something like that, can’t find the book). This was something he made up. He then hypnotized or “hypnotized” some students, who sure enough reported tingling in the right arm, which led him to conclude that it was all about suggestibility.

I suppose it’s obligatory to ask if zombies can be hypnotized, and what the effect on them would be of eating the brain of a hypnotized human.