# Is standing for the national anthem political? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 13, 2020, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-standing-for-the-national-anthem-political/918025 "2020-08-13T21:14:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-standing-for-the-national-anthem-political/918025/21 "2020-08-14T16:05:29Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > It was, instead, an assertion of solidarity with and support of the military/war effort during WWI. That was one big beautiful war. Maybe the greatest war. Some say it was the war to end all wars. We won that one like nobody has ever seen before. Shame it had to end when everybody got the flu. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-standing-for-the-national-anthem-political/918025/22 "2020-08-14T16:11:55Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > Way back in like, 9th or 10th grade, (late 80s) l decided that I would no longer say the pledge of allegiance, because there was not “liberty and justice for all.” So, one morning I stayed sitting while everyone else stood up and recited it. I was quickly told I had to stand. It sure felt political to be forced to stand. (I wasn’t forced to recite – not sure if they knew there was a Supreme Court case about that, or if they just stopped at making my protest be pretty much invisible.) Very sorry you had to go through that. It’s well-established law that you can’t be forced to stand or to say the Pledge: [West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette). That’s not much help right there in the classroom when the teacher and probably some fellow students are glaring at you, though. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-standing-for-the-national-anthem-political/918025/23 "2020-08-14T17:11:28Z")
Yeah, I didn’t know about the case. I went to a conservative school in a conservative place. I don’t know if they knew and didn’t care, or perhaps didn’t know because they didn’t care. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-standing-for-the-national-anthem-political/918025/24 "2020-08-14T19:02:13Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > _Standing_ for the anthem at such an anthem is a political statement, though - it asserts that you are a loyal member of that country. It it wasn’t a political statement then people of other countries would stand for our anthem too. Not to derail the thread, but at FIFA World Cup games and the like, isn’t it customary for everyone to stand for both anthems involved? “Please rise for the anthem of Germany…(song plays)…please remain standing for the anthem of Italy. (song plays)” ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-standing-for-the-national-anthem-political/918025/25 "2020-08-14T19:08:10Z")
Okay, I’ll cop to it - I’ve never watched an international sporting event. (Or any televised sporting event even - at least not all the way through.) So yes, I was pulling that out of my ass. Probably not the best GD behavior, but it seemed a reasonable guess. When these calls go out, does everybody in fact stand? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-standing-for-the-national-anthem-political/918025/26 "2020-08-14T19:16:50Z")
If you’re watching the game at home and they televise the anthem, do you stand? If not, doesn’t that mean it’s only political _if other people can see you?_ The deciding factor isn’t whether or not you want to support or want to protest your country, but whether anybody is watching. It’s the Schrödinger’s cat of political gestures. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-standing-for-the-national-anthem-political/918025/27 "2020-08-14T19:20:09Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > When these calls go out, does everybody in fact stand? I haven’t watched much more than you either, so I am going by a super-small sample size too, but apparently yes people usually do stand for both anthems involved, unless they particularly hate the country in question. (e.g., at the 2004 AFC Asian Cup final, the Chinese fans pointedly refused to stand during the Japanese anthem, and in fact booed and whistled while it was being played) ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-standing-for-the-national-anthem-political/918025/28 "2020-08-14T19:20:10Z")
Political but before it was not normally controversial because all mainstream political perspectives agreed that the US was a good country and deserved respect. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-standing-for-the-national-anthem-political/918025/29 "2020-08-14T19:22:23Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If not, doesn’t that mean it’s only political _if other people can see you?_ The deciding factor isn’t whether or not you want to support or want to protest your country, but whether anybody is watching. It’s the Schrödinger’s cat of political gestures. I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. Of course a political gesture is meant to be seen, that’s the whole point of it. If it weren’t seen it would be meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-standing-for-the-national-anthem-political/918025/30 "2020-08-14T19:23:54Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Not to derail the thread, but at FIFA World Cup games and the like, isn’t it customary for everyone to stand for both anthems involved? “Please rise for the anthem of Germany…(song plays)…please remain standing for the anthem of Italy. (song plays)” Yes. At NCAA college hockey games, both the Canadian and American anthems were played at the beginning. And we remained standing for both. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-standing-for-the-national-anthem-political/918025/31 "2020-08-14T19:28:26Z")
Since the consensus seems to be that the Anthem and the tradition around it was purposely designed from the ground up to be political, I wonder if perhaps it was also purposely designed to expose malcontents? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-standing-for-the-national-anthem-political/918025/32 "2020-08-14T19:33:17Z")
Probably, although that’s probably more of a secondary effect than the main intent of it. If you compel everyone to do something, and 1% refuse to do so, that exposes them as ‘disloyal’ or something, be it the Pledge or anthem or some other form of signaling. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-standing-for-the-national-anthem-political/918025/33 "2020-08-14T19:38:33Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > > If not, doesn’t that mean it’s only political _if other people can see you?_ The deciding factor isn’t whether or not you want to support or want to protest your country, but whether anybody is watching. It’s the Schrödinger’s cat of political gestures. > > I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. Of course a political gesture is meant to be seen, that’s the whole point of it. If it weren’t seen it would be meaningless. Then it has nothing to do with the anthem and everything to do with group conformity, and specifically conformity among a bunch of strangers since I doubt anyone cares if their friends and family members see them at home not rising for a televised rendition of the anthem. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-standing-for-the-national-anthem-political/918025/34 "2020-08-14T19:51:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It’s the Schrödinger’s cat of political gestures. What’s this about my cat? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-standing-for-the-national-anthem-political/918025/35 "2020-08-14T19:53:22Z")
Nothing, or maybe everything. It’s not decided yet. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-standing-for-the-national-anthem-political/918025/36 "2020-08-14T19:57:47Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > Since the consensus seems to be that the Anthem and the tradition around it was purposely designed from the ground up to be political, I wonder if perhaps it was also purposely designed to expose malcontents? Based on my google of history (which I linked), it wasn’t “purposely designed” at all. It just sort of happened. And any widely-observed gesture can reveal ‘malcontents’, by the fact that if people aren’t doing it, there’s probably a reason. (A nacho-based reason.) ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-standing-for-the-national-anthem-political/918025/37 "2020-08-14T20:02:30Z")
Sure it’s political. There are a lot of different ways it’s interpreted though, and not the kind of thing you can easily establish who believes what about it. I think most people just stand because everyone else does, though that is not the only reason they do it, they probably wouldn’t stand up if no one else was. If you ask them about it you might get most people saying they stand out of respect for something, but that’s just a cover story. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2020, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-standing-for-the-national-anthem-political/918025/38 "2020-08-14T20:03:49Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Fans don’t mind mixing politics with sports - if they did they wouldn’t play the anthem at all, obviously. Nor have military units carrying the flag, nor military flyovers. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-standing-for-the-national-anthem-political/918025/39 "2020-08-15T00:48:13Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > When these calls go out, does everybody in fact stand? Yes. I like hearing both anthems at these international games. I wish we’d dump it at domestic events. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-standing-for-the-national-anthem-political/918025/40 "2020-08-15T00:59:18Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > > [@begbert2](#): > > > > Fans don’t mind mixing politics with sports - if they did they wouldn’t play the anthem at all, obviously. > > Nor have military units carrying the flag, nor military flyovers. FYI, the NFL was _paid_ by the Department of Defense for those military displays. In other words, it was recruitment marketing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-standing-for-the-national-anthem-political/918025.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-standing-for-the-national-anthem-political/918025.md?page=3)