# Is Star Wars dead? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 17, 2004, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-star-wars-dead/240540 "2004-04-17T17:08:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Sweetums](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Sweetums](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweetums)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-star-wars-dead/240540/81 "2004-04-22T17:49:26Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > I like the name Dooku. I never understood why anyone would consider it funny. ``` Well for me, it kind of sounds like "dookie" a word often used by children who also use "ka-ka" to describe the same thing. My most sincere appologies to the doper Dooku for the above. ``` Sweetums ---
**Author:** ![sghoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@sghoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sghoul)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2004, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-star-wars-dead/240540/82 "2004-04-22T17:55:42Z")
Sorry, Dooku just doesn’t sound menacing. Vader, Maul, Sidious, they all sounds like bad news. Dooku just sounds silly. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2004, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-star-wars-dead/240540/83 "2004-04-22T18:20:33Z")
Despite George Lucas’ numerous sins (and I agree that there have been many), I forgive him for a lot of them because he’s at least willing to turn his fortunes and success back into the medium. THX. Skywalker Sound. Lucasarts Special Effects. The first mainstream movie in an all-digital format. Hell, Pixar, after a fashion. Other people could have simply pimped the _Star Wars_ property, raked in the cash, and lived as rich as Creosote(\*). At least Lucas is willing to pimp the _Star Wars_ property, rake in the case, and invested it in making movies better for everybody. That almost makes up for the pimpin’. (\* = Yes, spelling is correct: “There’s a name that tolls a bell,” said Gaspode. “Family used to live up Kingsway. Used to be as rich as Creosote.” “Who was Creosote?” “Some foreign bugger who was rich.” –Terry Pratchett, **Men-At-Arms** ) ---
**Author:** ![Hammer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc79bd/32.png) [@Hammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hammer)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2004, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-star-wars-dead/240540/84 "2004-04-22T18:30:12Z")
I think Artemis nailed it. These should have been pretty dark movies but there not. Lucas hasn’t left enough time to for Anakin to fall either. He’s got 2 hours to go from teenage brat to baddest mofo in the galaxy? Could have been done without changing too much either. Give us another 30/60 seconds of Anakin taking out the sand people(Women/Children). Have Padme be replused by his actions adding some fuel to the fire. He needed to look better in the final battle with dookie too. Does he seem the least bit intimidating at this point? ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2004, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-star-wars-dead/240540/85 "2004-04-22T19:11:55Z")
> [@Hammer](#): > > I think Artemis nailed it. These should have been pretty dark movies but there not. Lucas hasn’t left enough time to for Anakin to fall either. He’s got 2 hours to go from teenage brat to baddest mofo in the galaxy? > > Could have been done without changing too much either. Give us another 30/60 seconds of Anakin taking out the sand people(Women/Children). Have Padme be replused by his actions adding some fuel to the fire. He needed to look better in the final battle with dookie too. Does he seem the least bit intimidating at this point? Well, not really, but you can tell he doesn’t really respect the force (he used it to woo Portman) and doesn’t much worry about following his anger. But Luke was quite the punk till he showed up at Dagobah for a while, too, so it’s believable he becomes a real bad-ass under the right tutelege in EP III. I, too, would have liked to have seen more of his slaughter of the sand people. That was the death of his mother and his first major turn to the Dark Side, and what does Lucas do? Cuts away from it. Possibly, it was the ol’ “whatever you can imagine is worse that I can show” but if that’s true, I think its a cop-out. I was VERY puzzled as to why this scene wasn’t in because it was, basically, the breaking-point for Anakin, no? ---
**Author:** ![Ross](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@Ross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ross)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2004, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-star-wars-dead/240540/86 "2004-04-22T19:32:40Z")
I know why we don’t like the new stuff but we loved the old stuff. It’s because we grew up. Which would imply that Star Wars is a children’s fi… \* ::immediately buried beneath a thousand enraged geeks::\* ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2004, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-star-wars-dead/240540/87 "2004-04-22T19:52:36Z")
> [@Ross](#): > > I know why we don’t like the new stuff but we loved the old stuff. > > It’s because we grew up. Which would imply that Star Wars is a children’s fi… \* ::immediately buried beneath a thousand enraged geeks::\* I resent the implication that I am in any way, shape, or form a mature adult. ---
**Author:** ![RogueRacer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7ab992/32.png) [@RogueRacer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RogueRacer)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2004, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-star-wars-dead/240540/88 "2004-04-22T21:22:45Z")
Ross, that has pretty much been my point too. It’s just been derailed about this talk of the acting prowess of Fisher and Hamill. Right. People just need to remember R2, 3PO, Chewie, Yoda, the jawas, the ewoks, and the catinas full of muppets to see that these were always targeted at kids. I do agree that Ep. I & II could have been better (for me) if they were more mature. That’s not the way they or the first trilogy were shot. The biggest things that separate the first trilogy from what we have seen of the second is the charisma of Harrison Ford playing Han Solo (as I mentioned before) and the original Star Wars was much innovative for its time. ---
**Author:** ![Ross](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@Ross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ross)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2004, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-star-wars-dead/240540/89 "2004-04-22T22:30:27Z")
Yeah, I must agree that the casting of Harrison Ford was pure gold. I also feel that it was a one-in-a-million stroke of luck for Lucas, and really couldn’t have been repeated deliberately in the new films. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2004, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-star-wars-dead/240540/90 "2004-04-22T23:33:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Have Padme be replused by his actions adding some fuel to the fire. That might’ve been the weirdest moment of Clones for me. He tells her he’s just slaughtered an entire village of innocents, and her reaction was on the level of “my soup is cold.” ---
**Author:** ![Soapbox\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Soapbox\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soapbox_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2004, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-star-wars-dead/240540/91 "2004-04-22T23:59:17Z")
> [@Hammer](#): > > Lucas hasn’t left enough time to for Anakin to fall either. He’s got 2 hours to go from teenage brat to baddest mofo in the galaxy? You’re joking right? Do you forget that Luke was a little bitch in ESB but was a full-fledged badass Jedi from the very first moment we see him in RotJ? Less time passes between Empire and RotJ (about a year?) than the amount of time that is supposedly going to pass between AotC and Episode 3 (at least 2 years, probably 3). Plenty of time for Anakin to get his shit together. ---
**Author:** ![Soapbox\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Soapbox\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soapbox_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-star-wars-dead/240540/92 "2004-04-23T00:04:06Z")
Oh, and let’s not forget that technically it only takes ONE scene to fall to the Dark Side. It almost happened to Luke. If he had gone with his anger and finished off his father in front of Palpatine, Luke would have fallen. Mark my words people, because I’d be willing to put money on this. Anakin fighting Dooku before Palpatine, Palpatine encouraging Anakin to use his full anger, and Anakin fully succumbing to the Dark Side by slaying Dooku. EXACTLY mirroring Luke’s struggle, only in Anakin’s case, he is not strong enough to resist the pull of darkness. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-star-wars-dead/240540/93 "2004-04-23T00:18:28Z")
> [@Ross](#): > > I know why we don’t like the new stuff but we loved the old stuff. > > It’s because we grew up. That may be part of it, but it’s certainly not ALL of it. I wasn’t a child when _Star Wars_ came out, yet I loved it - and so did my (then middle-aged) parents. And now that I myself am middle-aged I still enjoy watching the original trilogy, but the last two films left me cold. The first three movies may have appealed to children, but that was a side-effect of the fact that Lucas intended them to appeal to ALL ages. In the last two films, though (especially _Phantom Menace_), he seemed to be reaching for kiddie appeal even if it came at the expense of alienating his adult audience, and even if it’s an inappropriate move considering the nature of the story he’s supposedly telling. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-star-wars-dead/240540/94 "2004-04-23T00:29:38Z")
> [@Trunk](#): > > I, too, would have liked to have seen more of his slaughter of the sand people. That was the death of his mother and his first major turn to the Dark Side, and what does Lucas do? Cuts away from it. > > Possibly, it was the ol’ “whatever you can imagine is worse that I can show” but if that’s true, I think its a cop-out. I was VERY puzzled as to why this scene wasn’t in because it was, basically, the breaking-point for Anakin, no? It wasn’t in because it’s too dark for Lucas’s taste. Remember, this isn’t the George Lucas who filmed Han Solo cold-bloodedly shooting another sentient being first (and in a cowardly fashion, too, not in an open contest); this is the George Lucas who reworked his original movie so that Greedo shot first. Wouldn’t do to have Han Solo be a REAL bastard, now; that might upset the kiddies. No, now he has to be “good” from the beginning. George Lucas has grown sentimental as he’s aged, to the detriment of his filmmaking. If he can’t handle Han Solo’s initial self-centeredness, how do you think he’s going to manage Anakin Skywalker being truly evil? ---
**Author:** ![aubries](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@aubries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aubries)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-star-wars-dead/240540/95 "2004-04-23T00:33:05Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > This is depressing. > > Am I the ONLY one who truly still loves SW, including the prequels? No, **Guin,** you’re not alone. I enjoyed both the prequels, although it was pretty easy to find glaring fault with them. I cheerfully saw them multiple times on the big screen, and would do so again given a chance. Yes, the dialog is embarrassingly bad. Yes, we have now seen Annakin played by a child who couldn’t act his way out a wet paper bag (and Jake Lloyd was pretty weak, too – ba dum bum). I could keep going, but don’t want to. I paid my seven bucks to get a face full of eye candy and adventure, and it was money well spent. No film could withstand the level of scrutiny to which these have been subjected. I find it telling that I see so little truly harsh criticism of these two movies that does not center around comparing them to the other three. If they had been released exactly as is, without having been a continuation of some previous franchise, my guess is that they would have been greeted with polite criticism, seen as above average but not spectacular, and of course made way less money. For what it’s worth, I thought Clones was waaaaaay better than Phantom. The romance stuff was annoyingly unconvincing, but that was the only thing that slowed it down for me. I expect that episode three will be entertaining, but not life-altering, and I look forward to plunking down my seven bucks for it. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-star-wars-dead/240540/96 "2004-04-23T00:36:58Z")
> [@Soapbox Monkey](#): > > You’re joking right? Do you forget that Luke was a little bitch in ESB but was a full-fledged badass Jedi from the very first moment we see him in RotJ? > > Less time passes between Empire and RotJ (about a year?) than the amount of time that is supposedly going to pass between AotC and Episode 3 (at least 2 years, probably 3). Plenty of time for Anakin to get his shit together. **Soapbox Monkey** , **Hammer** was talking about screen time, not about the amount of time that supposedly passes for the characters between the movies. In terms of total screen time we’re 2/3 of the way through Anakin’s story now, and Lucas has shown us only the barest hint that Anakin’s darker half even exists, much less that it’s growing. In order for Anakin’s final fall into evil to be emotionally believable, the groundwork has to be laid for the audience to believe that, yes, it could happen - and Lucas hasn’t done that. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-star-wars-dead/240540/97 "2004-04-23T01:01:05Z")
> [@Soapbox Monkey](#): > > Oh, and let’s not forget that technically it only takes ONE scene to fall to the Dark Side. No it takes more. If the director hasn’t clearly shown the audience in the earlier part of the story that the character has the potential to make such a disastrous mistake, that one scene will feel like a cheat, a _deus ex machina_ when he shows it. > [@Soapbox Monkey](#): > > It almost happened to Luke. If he had gone with his anger and finished off his father in front of Palpatine, Luke would have fallen. But by the point of that climatic scene, Luke has undergone a great deal more character development than Anakin so far has. In particular, we’ve seen in _Empire_ how easily he wavers and how rashly he can behave when he’s stressed, so when the final battle in front of the Emperor occurs, we think that it is indeed possible that Luke will screw up this time as he has before, and fall to the power of the Dark Side. Was _Attack of the Clones_ as dark a movie as _The Empire Strikes Back_? Because it NEEDED to be, if we’re to believe Anakin’s fall from grace when it comes. Indeed, we needed it to be even darker. George Lucas should not only have shown us Anakin slaughtering those innocent Sand People, he should have shown us that Anakin was enjoying it. We’d have make excuses for Anakin’s behavior - he’d just seen his mother die from the Sand People’s mistreatment of her, after all, and had been pushed by her death into a kind of temporary insanity - but we’d have remembered it, and when in the third film the crucial moment arrives and Anakin gves in to his hatred, we wouldn’t have been completely surprised, because we’d seen it before. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-star-wars-dead/240540/98 "2004-04-23T01:02:30Z")
> [@Ross](#): > > I know why we don’t like the new stuff but we loved the old stuff. > > It’s because we grew up. Which would imply that Star Wars is a children’s fi… \* ::immediately buried beneath a thousand enraged geeks::\* Flipancy aside, I don’t buy that. I really hate the argument that because something is “for kids” then it doesn’t have to have any real quality. _Spirited Away_ is a kids film. _Finding Nemo_ is a kids film. _Whale Rider_ is a kids film, despite its idiotic PG-13 rating. These were still all excellent works of art. If _Phantom Menace_ is supposed to be a kids film, it is none the less still an _incredibly bad_ kid’s film. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-star-wars-dead/240540/99 "2004-04-23T01:05:16Z")
> [@aubries](#): > > If they had been released exactly as is, without having been a continuation of some previous franchise, my guess is that they would have been greeted with polite criticism, seen as above average but not spectacular, and of course made way less money. You’re assuming that _Attack of the Clones_ would even have been made in that scenario. I think it more likely that _Phantom Menace_ would’ve gone the way of _Battlefield Earth_, and Lucas’ ambitions with it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-star-wars-dead/240540/100 "2004-04-23T01:07:08Z")
Actually, I should have said that _Attack of the Clones_ was an incredibly bad kids film. _Phantom Menace_ was merely credibly bad. I thought it was significantly superior to the second film, even with Jar-Jar Binks and Jake Lloyd. With a little editing, it could have been half-way good. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-star-wars-dead/240540.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-star-wars-dead/240540.md?page=6)