Is Starlink a danger to humanity?

How do you plan to keep a balloon over a given area when

you are in the jet stream and balloons are not known for aerodynamic flight let alone powered flight.
And part of the Starlink game plan is to provide high speed low latency internet to ships at sea, oasis in the Sahara, trains crossing the Gobi, remote Sahel, Yukon, and Amazon villages, military & scientific bases at the poles, and airplanes in flight.

And places like this will provide some of the funding to bring the internet to the aforementioned outposts.

IIRC the lifespan of an individual starlink sat is 5 -7 years of useful life then a de-orbit. Worst case dead satellite is around a decade or so before re-entry. They are working on visors and orientation to minimize harm to astronomy.

The gaseous electronic remains during the reentry flameout is probably of longer term concern.

Wikipedia writes about the jet stream:

The strongest jet streams are the polar jets , at 9–12 km (30,000–39,000 ft) above sea level, and the higher altitude and somewhat weaker subtropical jets at 10–16 km (33,000–52,000 ft).

The link I gave before about geostationary high altitude balloons shows that those machines are rather like zeppelins that balloons. And they would be above the jet stream, where air is rarified but winds are weak.
I am under no illusion this might happen any time soon. All I am saying is that it would be a better idea than satellites.

You are selling the bug as a feature, which it is not. You have swallowed Mr. Musk’s claims hook, line and sinker, but those claim are still Mr. Musk’s, that is: exagerated, self serving BS. Nothing is farther from his mind and interest than those godforsaken places where poor people live, except for the rare occasions when he or his friends pay a visit during ethno-touristic expeditions.

Google tried, and failed:

There are many difficulties relating to balloons, but the prime one is that they do not stay in place or move in a predicable manner. This would not be that big a problem if there were no national boundaries: you can raise and lower a balloon’s altitude and sorta keep it circling around a large geographical area. But countries tend to be picky about aircraft invading their airspace. There’s just too much politics involved for there to be a clean solution.

Satellites are much easier in this respect. Although you still have the problem of national radio communications bureaucracies each having their own special rules, a satellite can simply turn off its radios when passing over unlicensed territory. Satellite operators don’t have to negotiate for silently passing over a country.

At any rate, all the discussion about Starlink is moot at this point. Over ten thousand people are already happily using the service, and it’s certain that the military has taken an interest as well. I hope that SpaceX continues to work with the astronomy community to lessen their impact, but the constellation is not going away at this point.

SpaceX’s FCC filing says max 5 year decay time:
https://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=1569860

While SpaceX expects its satellites to perform nominally and deorbit actively as described above, in the unlikely event a vehicle is unable to finish its planned disposal maneuver, the denser atmospheric conditions at 550 km provide fully passive redundancy to SpaceX’s active disposal procedures. The natural orbital decay of a satellite at 1,150 km requires hundreds of years to enter the Earth’s atmosphere, but the lower satellites at an altitude of 550 km will take less than five years to do so, even considering worst-case assumptions. Due to the very lightweight design of the new spacecraft, SpaceX achieves a very high area-to-mass ratio on its vehicles. Combined with the natural atmospheric drag environment at 550 km, this high ratio ensures rapid decay even in the absence of the nominally planned disposal sequence. Thus, even assuming an extreme worst-case scenario – i.e., the spacecraft fails while in the operational orbit (circular at 550 km), has no attitude control, and solar activity is at a minimum – the longest decay time is still only approximately 4.5-5 years. The time to satellite demise from various altitudes is illustrated in Figure 11.1-1 below.

Starlink isn’t at 550 km, it’s at 340km. As Dr. Strangelove says, the orbital lifetime at that altitude is more like 5 yeara. The Kessler syndrome doesn’t happen overnight. Given the rate of propagation of debris and the rate of subsequent collisions, I’m not sure it’s even possible with such short-lived orbits.

Light pollution for astronomy is mostly a problem just after sunset, when the satellites are still being bathed in sunlight while the ground is dark. And as an astrophotographer, I can say that image stacking is a very effective way to remove transient signals. But yes, this will annoy astronomers. It will not destroy ground-based astronomy - it will increase processing and imaging time due to rejected frames.

These are small prices to pay to bring the internet to the poor and disconnected peoples of the world. The travails of astronomers takes on less significance if you are a poor person in a village in Africa, cut off from the world. Starlink has the potential to revolutionize the lives of millions of people. They’re just not people in San Fransisco or New York.

I live in the Colorado mountains. Yeah, Geo sat internet works, but it kinda sucks. It’s a first world ‘problem’ for me and my only option. But now with COVID about, I am working from home. The latency of a geosynchronous sat is really bad when trying to do stuff - connecting to work computers, and even typing on them. It can take seconds to get one letter across. Lots of fun with complicated passwords.

Hey, if we posit that we can move killer asteroids with lasers from millions of miles away, blasting some pesky debris seems fairly trivial.

Most of the people who say you can easily get by without Internet and that it is not an essential service have never tried to get by without it. You cannot. However, this is often due to organizations with mandatory forms or procedures which are computer based.

And if not, just how much faith should one posit in the asteroid shooting scenario? “Well, we’ve got time for a thousand shots…”

No, but they never claimed Falcon 9 would bring that level of savings. For one thing, the second stage isn’t reusable, so they couldn’t hit ‘an order of magnitude’ even if the first stage refurb cost was zero. It turns out that it’s extremely hard to reuse a second stage unless you scale up the rocket to enormous size - hence Starship.

Also, the advantage of reusing these craft is that you can inspect them for wear and learn how to build rockets that last longer. You also learn over time how to engineer for easier replacement of parts, and if you get to certain scales you can start using assembly lines to build replacement parts and drive down costs even further. So while early costs savings are probably eaten up by teardown and engineering costs as SpaceX climbs the learning curve, the door is now open for increasing cost savings as we learn what does and doesn’t get damaged on a typical flight and build more robust parts.

So I wouldn’t say that SpaceX has reduced spaceflight costs by orders of magnitude, but that they have created a paradigm shift that has the potential for such savings. A fully reusable starship that needs minimal refurb time could drive the cost of spaceflight down substantially. Not to the crazy levels Musk touts: There’s still fuel, launch site costs, fixed costs, insurance, time value of money (tying up a $200 million rocket for several years on a Mars trip is not free), etc.

A Boeing 747 costs about $25,000 per hour to fly. A round trip of an overseas flight can cost close to a million dollars. And yet, the aircraft is completely reusable and uses a lot less fuel and costs probably 10% of what a Starship would cost.

Or look at it this way: Let’s say a manned starship can fly once per week. That’s 52 flights per year. If the thing costs $200 million to build, and you pay 5% for financing, that’s just about $100,000 per flight just for interest on your money. Worse, if the starship only flies 100 times before being scrapped (Misk’s estimate), the amortization cost is another $2 million per flight.

Then there’s fuel and maintenance and the share of fixed costs that each flight requires for planning, engineering, transportation, launch pad upkeep, etc. Call it an absolute floor of maybe $5 million per flight if everything goes according to Misk’s vision. And that’s the price that maybe you could get to in a long-term scenario after the system is mature, assuming there is a market big enough for the kind of flight cadences that would be required to achieve such low costs and rockets can eventually be flown with only the kind of turnaround maintenance aircraft get.

Then don’t forget that any mission beyond LEO requires up to seven launches because of the need for on-orbit refueling, and even at this very simple level you’re looking at a minimum of $35 million in launch costs for a mission beyond Earth.

Consider a Mars mission with these parameters. $35 million to send a fueled Starship to Mars. The Starship will be unusable for anything else for at least two years, so add in millions more in depreciation, interest, and amortization. Fueling it to get home will require expensive ISRU equipment in place on Mars, costing at least another $100 million. If it can fuel 10 trips before needing replacement, add another $10 million per trip.

In the real world, it’s hard to imagine a round trip to Mars with current and extrapolated technology ever costing less than $50 million or so. And that’s if all the reusability stuff works as promised and costs as little as promised, and Starship needs very little maintenance between flights.

In the short and medium term, multiply those prices accordingly. Because we aren’t going to see daily Starship flights for a long, long time. And only then if a market can be developed for putting at least 35,000 tons of stuff into space per year.

The current shell they’re filling out is at 550 km. There’s a planned future shell at 340 km, but that’s not the current ones.

550 km would normally be thought of as a “decades” duration decay, but the Starlink sats have an unusually high surface-area-to-mass ratio. So according to their models it’s 5 years at most, and somewhat less if there are any other advantages present, such as a degree of attitude control or there’s a solar maximum.

The satellites are launched into a 450 km insertion orbit and then raised from there. So any satellites that are dead on arrival or fail early in the bathtub curve will already be at a low orbit and decay in probably under a year.

The FCC filing cites NASA’s own research on orbital debris and large constellations (see the Large Constellation Study):

The quick version is that a 99% disposal success over a 5-year span results in no substantial increase in catastrophic collisions over a period of centuries. Starlink already achieves this rate through passive means (and will do even better through active means).

Note that the current disposal rule is 25 years for low Earth orbit satellites. I think it’s pretty clear that this rule should be significantly tightened given the plans for multiple large constellations. Fortunately, Starlink is already at levels substantially better than any likely future rule improvements. 5 years does seem like a good target.

There is a future shell planned at 1,110 km. This one is a legitimate concern since satellites cannot decay naturally at that altitude. But we’ll have plenty of information on the reliability of the current satellites by the time they start with those (and they may decide not to launch them at all).

So, if atmospheric drag will clear debris pretty quickly, won’t it also take down the satellites themselves? Are we going to be constantly replacing these things because they are burning up in the earth’s atmosphere?

Cool thread. I just signed up for Starlink which is supposed to be available in my area later this year.

Perhaps someday there will eventually be a market for orbital garbage collection? I imagine it’d be pretty hard to find a payer until the NWO takes over though.

Partly, yes. The Starlink sats are intended to have a 5-year lifetime and be replaced after that.

However, orbital decay will move your satellites out of their desired orbit. Hence, Starlink sats have small electric thrusters to keep them positioned.

The thrusters are also used to actively dispose of the satellite at the end of its lifetime. But it’s fair to assume that some number of satellites will fail and cannot be controlled at that point. So it’s good policy for satellites to be self-disposing after some number of years.

Thanks for the clarification.

In general the drag increases as the ratio of surface area to mass increases. A satellite that breaks up creates pieces that will (again in general) have a higher ratio of surface area to mass, and so will be cleared faster than the whole satellite will be.

Example: Suppose a satellite is a 2 meter by 2 meter by 2 meter cube, weighing 800 pounds (wild guesses, all). It has a surface area of 24 square-meters, so surface area to mass is 24/800 (0.03) square meters/pound. Break the satellite up into 8 pieces, each weight 100 pounds. Each piece has a surface area of 6 square-meters, so each piece as a ratio of 6/100 (0.06) square meters/pound - and will be dragged twice as much.

In reality, it’s more complicated - the shape of the object matters, and what we really care about it is the surface area in the direction that impinges on the atmosphere - but that just makes it worse for debris, which will tend to be jagged, with even larger surface areas that the above suggests.

I know some people take the analysis and projections from SpaceX as gospel from on high but this is nonsense. I’m not able to download the linked document, but a satellite at 550 km circular orbit might have that short of a lifetime if it occurs through the solar maximum when the thermopause extends well above the orbit, especially if there is high geomagnetic activity, but at the solar minimum the molecular density above 500 km is almost negligible. A low area density is not meaningful if there isn’t sufficient molecular density for the satellite to lose momentum to. I don’t know who has evaluated this for the FCC but if this was accepted without challenge I question that due diligence has been done.

I’m not going to go into detail yet again on the topic of reusability–anyone who is interested can go back through prior threads on the topic–but reusability is just not the orders-of-magnitude cost savings that many people seem to think it is. The biggest part of the cost of an orbital space launch is in the post-fabrication labor; the ‘touch labor’ of vehicle integration and checkout, the processing and integration of payload(s), all of the ground support, maintenance, launch operations, trajectory analysis, flight simulations, hardware-in-the-loop simulations, component acceptance testing, and everything that goes into ensuring that none of the hundreds of thousands of things that could go wrong and result in a catastrophic failure are left unchecked. The cost breakdown of a typical space launch is <1% fuel (for RP-1 and LOx…higher for hypergolics, probably lower than RP-1 for methane and LOx), 10%–15% fabrication, 20%–40% non-recurring engineering (mission-specific analysis and any peculiar hardware or first flight items), 10% “management reserve” (e.g. overhead costs and any unexpected analysis or pre-flight anomaly resolution that always happens), and the rest is those integration and processing costs.

If SpaceX was claiming to have reduced those ‘touch labor’ costs via automation, I’d be more inclined to give credence to massive launch cost reductions, and in fact they have implemented certain labor-reducing features for Falcon 9/Heavy, such as horizontal integration (which is a surprising reduction in labor). The other way to reduce the launch cost in payload mass to orbit is to increase the amount of payload a vehicle can carry, because with the right processing and ground support infrastructure, it doesn’t cost that much more effort to process a large vehicle than a modest size one, and at first glance it would seem that this is what the Super Heavy (or whatever they are calling it this month) is doing; however, the rub is you actually have to have a customer (or multiple customers going to the same azimuth) who can buy an entire flight. The reason concepts like Sea Dragon and the general Big Dumb Booster concepts never took off (figuratively or literally) wasn’t because of any technical limitations but because there just wasn’t any customer looking to launch 500+ ton payloads to orbit. If they can get the Super Heavy working then it will be a boon provided someone can find a need for that capability beyond Musk’s facile “Occupy Mars” scheme, and given that capacity I assume someone will (although whether it will be frequent enough to justify reuse remains to be seen) but I’ll take all of the estimates of cost reduction with the same degree of credibility due given past performance of SpaceX in hitting its goals and deadlines.

I often hear the comparison between airliners and space launch vehicles which Musk himself likes to repeat at every opportunity, apparently without any comprehension of the difference between how and where these vehicles operate. An airliner could literally be operated (for a few weeks, at least) by one pilot and an aircraft mechanic to check the engines and other critical systems between flights. It experiences high altitudes with reduced pressure, freezing temperatures, and electrostatic buildup, but nothing that really pushes the limits of material capability save for the turbines which have been highly engineered to last for thousands of hours of flight operation. A rocket launch vehicle, on the other hand, experiences extremes of aeroelastic vibration, aerodynamic heating, various dynamic events, and a propellant feed system that uses the same amount of fuel in a few tens of seconds than a commercial airliner will use in several hours of flight. But more significantly, there is almost no way a modern airliner can fail in flight that will result in catastrophic loss of vehicle short of breaking a wing or vertical stabilizer; by comparison, there are only a small subset of things that can fail on a rocket launch vehicle without resulting in catastrophic loss. These are just not comparable machines any more than you would pit a hound dog against a hippopotamus.

Stranger

I don’t believe every word out of Musk’s mouth, but I tend to believe information that they’ve filed with the Feds. Lying about that stuff has consequences.

The document unfortunately doesn’t go into a great amount of detail about how they got their numbers, but does note that the 5 year is assuming a solar minimum. Here’s the provided chart, with footnote:

According to this, at solar maximum and attitude control failure, the demise time is under 2 years. With attitude control it’s under one year. At solar minimum and no control it’s 4.5 years.

Given that the solar cycle is only ~11 years anyway, you can only be at solar minimum for so long before it starts increasing again. I assume the chart above takes this into account.

Yeah, well, it doesn’t seem like either SpaceX or Elon Musk have much concern or forbearance regarding deceiving or ignoring federal agencies, nor much concern for public safety or good stewardship regarding safety of either the public or other spacecraft:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-02/spacex-lacked-safety-waiver-for-test-ended-in-fireball-faa-says

and of course:

https://www.thestreet.com/investing/elon-musk-mocks-sec-on-twitter-again

There is an old saw regarding figures and liars, and I’ve dealt with enough of both to question the analysis behind it when it contradicts what would seem to be commonly accepted knowledge to the contrary.

Stranger