# Is stating "Women can change their behavior to lessen their chance of sexual assault" misogynistic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2019, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100 "2019-07-15T01:25:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/181 "2019-07-16T22:36:42Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Well, in most cases it might very well be useless information. That doesn’t mean that those who suggest that dress may play a role are being misogynistic. Do you think that walking out of the gym in yoga pants and a sports bar increases a woman’s chance of being raped? Do you thinking wearing very revealing and sexy clothes at a bar or club increases a woman’s chance of being raped? Do you think wearing very sexy or revealing clothes at a college party increases a woman’s chances of being raped? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/182 "2019-07-16T22:45:00Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > It’d be nice if we could say those sorts of things in the same way we tell people not to count a stack of cash when riding on the subway. I missed this. Women are told these things CONTSTANTLY. We have endless discussions about where the line is and where it isn’t. We forward each other news stories like they were baseball cards and talk about to what degree the victim might have mitigated that risk. Are you an expert on anything? I’m an expert on college admissions/SAT. Whenever something happens, like the recent college admissions scandal, people forward me articles for weeks, months, just in case I hadn’t seen it. And I don’t say anything, but it’s a little annoying, because of COURSE I know about this. It’s my fucking job to know about this. I think my feelings there are a pretty common experience for anything anyone is an expert at. Well, all women are experts at minimizing the danger of sexual assault. We are seeped in it. So don’t worry that no one ever told that poor woman not to [do that thing]. She’s been told. ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/183 "2019-07-16T22:46:32Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Is that because you feel unsafe outside of your home? > > _snip_ > > I mean, do you guys actually think more sexual assaults are happening because men are not allowed to freely advise women about making better choices? This is a serious question. Do you guys think women are getting raped because they are engaging in risky behavior that they didn’t recognize as risky, but men watching them did but couldn’t say anything? No, I do not feel unsafe outside of my home. And again, my stance on this is merely that the advice itself should not be considered inherently misogynistic. That is all. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/184 "2019-07-16T22:59:17Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Very specifically, do you think the woman’s choice to remain in her gym clothes increases her chance of being assaulted? You have lumped “wearing a sports bra and yoga pants” in with wearing headphones and starting at her phone. Do you think that if she was in less revealing clothes, but still staring at her phone/wearing headphones, her risk would be lower? If she were in yoga pants and a sports bra, but practicing good situational awareness, would her risk still be higher than otherwise? Yes, I think revealing clothing does increase her chance, because she is more likely to be noticed when she is wearing more revealing clothing. The more people who notice her, the greater the chance that one of those people is a creep. If the creep doesn’t notice her or notices someone else, he’s not going to go after her. And I also think that walking through the parking lot with blinders on also increases her chance, since it makes it easier for a creep to watch her or follow her. Although anyone can be attacked, the more alluring someone is to a creep, the more aware they need to be. That goes for men as well. Although not sexually assaulted as much, a man can easily be alluring as a target to be robbed. A man who has very obvious wealth should not be walking through a dark parking lot staring at his phone either. > [@MandaJo](#): > > Well, all women are experts at minimizing the danger of sexual assault. We are seeped in it. So don’t worry that no one ever told that poor woman not to [do that thing]. She’s been told. Ok, but then why do so many women leave the gym like I describe, where they are in revealing clothing and are engrossed in their phone? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/185 "2019-07-16T23:11:58Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Yes, I think revealing clothing does increase her chance, because she is more likely to be noticed when she is wearing more revealing clothing. The more people who notice her, the greater the chance that one of those people is a creep. If the creep doesn’t notice her or notices someone else, he’s not going to go after her. > > And I also think that walking through the parking lot with blinders on also increases her chance, since it makes it easier for a creep to watch her or follow her. > > Although anyone can be attacked, the more alluring someone is to a creep, the more aware they need to be. That goes for men as well. Although not sexually assaulted as much, a man can easily be alluring as a target to be robbed. A man who has very obvious wealth should not be walking through a dark parking lot staring at his phone either. But that’s not true. It make a sort of intuitive sense to you, because you aren’t a rapist, and when you try to imagine what a rapist is thinking, you get it wrong. This is an article in the [Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/04/13/why-dress-codes-cant-stop-sexual-assault/?utm_term=.2e0cebbdf17d): > [@](#): > > A Federal Commission on Crime of Violence study found that just 4.4 percent of all reported rapes involved “provocative behavior” on the part of the victim. (In murder cases, it’s 22 percent.) It also found that most convicted rapists could not remember what their victims were wearing. Studies show that women with passive personalities, who tend to dress in layers, long pants and sleeves and high necklines, are actually more likely to be raped Rapists don’t appear to be “activated” by alluring appearences. They may be activated by more passive behavior–which makes it more likely that they will be successful. > [@](#): > > Ok, but then why do so many women leave the gym like I describe, where they are in revealing clothing and are engrossed in their phone? Because she’s assessed the risks and decided that it’s a level of risk/reward she’s willing to live with. Or she’s not really staring at her phone–she’s paying pretty close attention but uses the (not plugged in) headphones and the screen to look disinterested, as being drawn into a conversation with a stranger trying to hit on you is MUCH more likely that a bullrush-style assault, and those conversations can also lead to violence or at least extreme anxiety. I mean, I think people that bike on the street after dark are taking a risk I wouldn’t be comfortable taking–a risk I don’t think is worth it–but I don’t think they are literally unaware of the fact that they are taking a risk. I don’t think it’s just no one has ever been able to tell them it’s dangerous. Do you? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/186 "2019-07-17T00:03:38Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > But the “advice” others gives IS based on beliefs like “women would be safer if they stayed home more” or “women would be safer if they dressed differently”. I know that. I find it hugely insulting for men to give women advice on how to not get assaulted. Men should spend their time telling other men not to assault women. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/187 "2019-07-17T00:07:39Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I know that. I find it hugely insulting for men to give women advice on how to not get assaulted. Men should spend their time telling other men not to assault women. Or you could do both. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/188 "2019-07-17T00:10:15Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Well, in most cases it might very well be useless information. That doesn’t mean that those who suggest that dress may play a role are being misogynistic. If they think this is relevant in any discussion about rape, then they’re ignorant at best. But you said “most cases”. What are the other cases in which you think it is useful info? Basically, what I’m getting at, is that there’s no evidence that wearing revealing clothing increases the likelihood of rape. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/189 "2019-07-17T00:17:27Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Or you could do both. Perhaps. But I don’t spend my time giving unasked for advice to people who know better than I about what they should be doing. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/190 "2019-07-17T00:25:12Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Perhaps. But I don’t spend my time giving unasked for advice to people who know better than I about what they should be doing. What would you tell a hypothetical young daughter of yours? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/191 "2019-07-17T00:28:37Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > What would you tell a hypothetical young daughter of yours? What would you? Aside from “don’t get in a car full of knives”? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/192 "2019-07-17T00:30:45Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > What would you tell a hypothetical young daughter of yours? That’s easy. I don’t need permission to give my daughter advice. “Don’t get blackout drunk” “Stay with your friends” It’s not hypothetical because I have a daughter. And it’s the same advice I’d give my non-hypothetical son. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/193 "2019-07-17T00:48:07Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > What would you? Aside from “don’t get in a car full of knives”? That is pretty solid advice. You forgot the rope though. How would I elaborate on that? Even at the risk of misogynistic, victim shaming? I am not sure. What am I permitted to say? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/194 "2019-07-17T00:50:51Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > That is pretty solid advice. You forgot the rope though. How would I elaborate on that? Even at the risk of misogynistic, victim shaming? I am not sure. What am I permitted to say? If someone asks for your advice, you say “you could do…” whatever. And if something happens to them, you say “I’m sorry that happened to you” and not “Told you so!” It’s actually not that hard. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/195 "2019-07-17T00:59:18Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > If someone asks for your advice, you say “you could do…” whatever. > > And if something happens to them, you say “I’m sorry that happened to you” and not “Told you so!” > > It’s actually not that hard. Who said anything about “I told you so?” This is about mitigating risk and if it’s evil to suggest clothing may play a role not about scolding victims after the fact. Why try to reframe it as such? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/196 "2019-07-17T01:07:16Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Who said anything about “I told you so?” This is about mitigating risk and if it’s evil to suggest clothing may play a role not about scolding victims after the fact. Why try to reframe it as such? Well, surprising as it may seem, sometimes what you think is an understood fact is not quite so simple, as I learned in this thread. Sure, you could offer your unasked for advice of “Don’t wear revealing clothes if you want to lessen your chance of being assaulted” but I’ve not seen any correlation between “revealing clothing” and assault. Have you? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/197 "2019-07-17T01:14:01Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Well, surprising as it may seem, sometimes what you think is an understood fact is not quite so simple, as I learned in this thread. > > Sure, you could offer your unasked for advice of “Don’t wear revealing clothes if you want to lessen your chance of being assaulted” but I’ve not seen any correlation between “revealing clothing” and assault. Have you? To answer you and iiandyiiii, no I haven’t. I haven’t seen anything that can answer that definitively one way or the other. Most search results have opinion pieces and anecdotes that say clothing doesn’t matter. One said modest dress was a contributing factor as it signaled meekness. It was an anecdote that I found surprising. But anyways, if I saw a legit study that proves no correlation between dressing and sexual assault I’d believe it. I would still caution that dress in general can lead to other forms of assault and that how one dresses has a bearing on one’s outcome in life. Now all that said, I don’t believe that offering what one believes to be helpful advice is necessarily misogynistic. It might very well be ignorant or foolish. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/198 "2019-07-17T01:22:36Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > But anyways, if I saw a legit study that proves no correlation between dressing and sexual assault I’d believe it. I would still caution that dress in general can lead to other forms of assault and that how one dresses has a bearing on one’s outcome in life Fair enough, and I have no doubts that others who know way more than I about this could offer such studies. I will say that “Don’t dress like an American” is advice offered when traveling to other countries, so I don’t doubt that dress can affect some types of outcomes. > [@](#): > > Now all that said, I don’t believe that offering what one believes to be helpful advice is necessarily misogynistic. It might very well be ignorant or foolish. Sure, but don’t offer that advice unasked, and you could avoid a lot of problems. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/199 "2019-07-17T01:34:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Can women do things to lessen their risk of being sexually assaulted at home? Yes, they can - deadbolt locks, don’t bring home or date or marry men you can’t trust, etc. > > How to tell which are the untrustworthy men is a lot harder. True, which makes “don’t bring home or date or marry men you can’t trust” kind of a stupid suggestion considered in terms of **useful practical advice** to women about reducing their risk of sexual assault. And again, it needs emphasizing that all such advice, even the small percentage of it that **is** actually useful and practical, is implicitly expecting women to take on an extra burden to compensate for men’s failure to fulfill their basic obligations. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/200 "2019-07-17T01:38:35Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > True, which makes “don’t bring home or date or marry men you can’t trust” kind of a stupid suggestion considered in terms of **useful practical advice** to women about reducing their risk of sexual assault. > > And again, it needs emphasizing that all such advice, even the small percentage of it that **is** actually useful and practical, is implicitly expecting women to take on an extra burden to compensate for men’s failure to fulfill their basic obligations. Just to be clear, you are again changing words to “advice”, which is not what \*\*Shodan \*\*was saying. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100.md?page=11)