# Is stating "Women can change their behavior to lessen their chance of sexual assault" misogynistic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2019, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100 "2019-07-15T01:25:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/201 "2019-07-17T01:47:48Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > That is pretty solid advice. You forgot the rope though. How would I elaborate on that? Even at the risk of misogynistic, victim shaming? I am not sure. What am I permitted to say? You’re permitted whatever you want, but in my view, it’s appropriate to say things that aren’t 1) insultingly obvious (age-adjusted) and 2) untrue. However, I also think it’s appropriate to frankly acknowledge relative risks and costs–it’s so so easy for want the people we love to avoid all risk, regardless of the cost of that safety. If your daughter gets a job offer in a strange city, it’s not appropriate to push hard for her to turn it down, because it’s not safe for a woman to move to a strange city alone. It’s not appropriate to chide her for going jogging in a quiet suburban neighborhood because you don’t feel it’s safe. It’s not appropriate to quiz her on whether she changes out of her workout clothes to walk from the gym to the car, because you worry that it puts her at risk. If she wants to be a geologist or an entertainer or a business consultant, it’s not appropriate to tell her that it’s not a safe dream for a woman because she’ll be traveling alone with men a lot. If she wants to drive across country, it’s not appropriate for you to insist on buying her plane tickets because it’s not safe for a woman to drive alone. She knows the risks with all those things, and “advising” her on them doesn’t serve to keep her safe, it just serves to reinforce the idea that taking on those risks is selfish and unwise, and that even if the risk seems worth it to her, society doesn’t think so, and therefore if it does goes badly, she shouldn’t expect support. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/202 "2019-07-17T01:52:54Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Just to be clear, you are again changing words to “advice”, which is not what \*\*Shodan \*\*was saying. But my statements remain valid if you replace the word “advice” with, e.g., “diagnosis” or “analysis” or whatever you prefer to consider it. The problem here, once again, is not merely that so many men are patronizingly offering unhelpful or unsolicited **advice** to women about reducing sexual assault risk. The problem is primarily that so many men (and many women as well) are unthinkingly perpetuating the **mindset** that the key issue in reducing sexual assault risk is women’s behavior. Whether they are suggesting advice or proffering opinions, diagnoses, analyses, whatever, they automatically foreground the question of what women are doing and what women could or should do differently to reduce their risk of sexual assault. Implicit in that approach is the assumption that changing men’s behavior is a notion not worth talking about, even though it’s men’s behavior that is the cause of the problem in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/203 "2019-07-17T02:01:13Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > You quoted my post #12 in your post #87. That’s to what I was referring. I am assuming that all the posts between my #12 and your #87 was what you were referring to… I quoted post #12 specifically to ask you whether that was what you were referring to in posts #22 and #32. I don’t understand how you would not realize I was talking about what you were saying up to and including post #32. That’s why in my previous answer I referred to all the posts discussing the subject that came before #32, and not to the ones between #32 and #87. > [@HelenGawn](#): > > Sure. I have a bad habit of not elaborating. Here’s the original post I was referring to from the “why didn’t Jews assimilate” thread: That was followed up in the ATBM thread by \*\*Banquet Bear:\*\*I was attempting to answer to your question (paraphrased, I hope accurately) why I was baffled by others not seeing **manson74’s** post as hyperbole. **Banquet Bear** was right that the “simple fact” that women can “stop being so rape-able” is not at all simple - and poorly worded as well. It leaves out so many other factors as to bring the “significant” assessment into question. > > I withdraw saying BB’s response, the second quoted above, was also complex. I read more into it than I should have. > > So, to make a long story, manson’s statement IMHO was a _reductio ad absurdum_ to back up BB… Thanks for clarification. Banquet Bear was responding to that post by manson1972, though; so I don’t see how manson’s statement could have been meant to back up BB. > [@Kron](#): > > I just find it objectionable that the statement raised in the OP is labeled as inherently misogynistic- as though it is a simple black and white issue, that THOSE words strung together in THAT way is misogynistic. The problem is in large part that the words were strung together as if it’s a simple black and white issue. Look, folks. The original post that started this off says: > [@Slash1972](#): > > Based on recent ATMB threads and various warnings, and the fact that posters seem to think that posting a contrary opinion on certain topics won’t automatically get a warning, I would like to see if basics facts, when posted as a legitimate, sincerely held belief, can actually get a discussion going. > > In the recent past, my statement that “If a woman just stayed at home, locked in her bedroom wearing a burka, it would significantly lower her chances of being assaulted” was deemed “racist and misogynistic” > > Can a factual statement be considered “racist and misogynistic”? . Most of the rest of this thread has been various people pointing out in various ways that no, that’s not a factual statement. At any rate, it’s not a factual statement posed as a general statement about women as a whole. Some individual women are safer from rape when they’re home in their bedrooms; others are safer when they’re out and about; for yet others it’s a wash. I’m sure that some individual women are safer if wearing a burka, most individual women are not. Judging by post #196, manson1972 seems to have figured this out. However – I think I’ll throw in that sometimes a factual statement could be misogynistic and/or racist. For an example: it’s a factual statement that on average (though not in every individual case) women are less muscular than men. If there’s a thread about weightlifting records, and somebody asked why the women’s records were for less weight than the men’s records, and someone else answered “women aren’t as strong as men”: that wouldn’t be misogynistic. But if someone posted the same thing in a thread in which the conversation was about something else, just to make a comparison that could easily be made in a different fashion, that comes across entirely differently. And if someone kept posting it in multiple threads that were about other issues: that would definitely be misogynistic. (I’m also going to throw in about the women leaving the gym in workout clothes: that implies a physically able women who’s confident in her body. I suspect that might actually be offputting to some rapists. The advice which I got years ago which I thought actually made sense – and which was given to me by a woman living in a high-crime area – was that if you’re going to walk in an area you think might be dangerous, never look afraid; move instead with the attitude that you’re entirely confident nobody’s going to hurt you. Very similar to, if you’re not sure of a dog’s intentions never run away from it. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/204 "2019-07-17T02:04:06Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Whether they are suggesting advice or proffering opinions, diagnoses, analyses, whatever, they automatically foreground the question of what women are doing and what women could or should do differently to reduce their risk of sexual assault. Implicit in that approach is the assumption that changing men’s behavior is a notion not worth talking about, even though it’s men’s behavior that is the cause of the problem in the first place. This analysis is predicated on assuming that “could” and “should” have no differences in meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/205 "2019-07-17T02:07:00Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > This analysis is predicated on assuming that “could” and “should” have no differences in meaning. No, it isn’t. Even if you’re only talking about what women “could” do in this context and never use the word “should” at all, my point still stands: the fundamental problem is with constantly foregrounding the behavior and choices of women as the key issue in the context of sexual assault. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/206 "2019-07-17T02:09:44Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I quoted post #12 specifically to ask you whether that was what you were referring to in posts #22 and #32. I don’t understand how you would not realize I was talking about what you were saying up to and including post #32. That’s why in my previous answer I referred to all the posts discussing the subject that came before #32, and not to the ones between #32 and #87 This is too complicated for me to figure out, so I’ll just concede that you are correct. > [@](#): > > Judging by post #196, manson1972 seems to have figured this out When a discussion seems to begin to hurt people, that’s when I can switch from “examining edge cases and applicability of general statements to specific scenarios” to “think about what you are saying and try not to insult people who may be victims of assault” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/207 "2019-07-17T02:09:48Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Or you could do both. And do you do both equally on this message board? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/208 "2019-07-17T02:13:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And do you do both equally on this message board? Checks thread title… This thread is not about me. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/209 "2019-07-17T02:17:57Z")
> [@HelenGawn](#): > > **manson74’s** Also, :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/210 "2019-07-17T02:21:47Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Or you could do both. This was your suggestion to **manson1972** , whose name also isn’t in the thread title. Frankly, suggesting that the emphasis should be on both men and women equally strongly suggests a equality in fault that just isn’t there. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/211 "2019-07-17T02:27:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This was your suggestion to **manson1972** , whose name also isn’t in the thread title. > Frankly, suggesting that the emphasis should be on both men and women equally strongly suggests a equality in fault that just isn’t there. Right. But my reply to Manson concerned the subject of the thread not his behavior on the board or anywhere else in general. That’s the difference. Equal emphasis? That’s a strawman. No one in this thread is talking proportions. Equal or otherwise. Acknowledging that something may or may not be a factor has no relationship to how much of a factor something is. When it comes to crime the fault lies with the criminal. In my opinion at least. Precautions taken or not, which my have been a contributing factor, don’t make a victim responsible for a criminal’s action. The conclusions you are coming to reflect your own biases. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/212 "2019-07-17T02:54:18Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > No, it isn’t. Even if you’re only talking about what women “could” do in this context and never use the word “should” at all, my point still stands: the fundamental problem is with constantly foregrounding the behavior and choices of women as the key issue in the context of sexual assault. “Constantly” seems like a strong word, especially when applied to someone who doesn’t constantly do that. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/213 "2019-07-17T03:01:39Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > “Constantly” seems like a strong word Feel free to change it to “persistently” or “habitually” if you prefer. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/214 "2019-07-17T03:08:31Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Feel free to change it to “persistently” or “habitually” if you prefer. Those seem like synonyms to “constantly”, so I still disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/215 "2019-07-17T03:20:36Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Those seem like synonyms to “constantly”, so I still disagree. I would suggest alternatives like “disproportionately” or “inappropriately”, but I’m getting the strong impression that you’re once again determined to nitpick about an issue of literal interpretation because you don’t have a convincing rebuttal to what the statement you’re objecting to actually meant. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/216 "2019-07-17T03:27:52Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I would suggest alternatives like “disproportionately” or “inappropriately”, but I’m getting the strong impression that you’re once again determined to nitpick about an issue of literal interpretation because you don’t have a convincing rebuttal to what the statement you’re objecting to actually meant. No, I’m determined to rebut the fact that men are “constantly” or whatever synonym you use are “foregrounding the behavior and choices of women as the key issue in the context of sexual assault” Are “some” men doing that? Sure, I’m guessing they are. Perhaps prefacing your statements with “Some men” would alleviate the problems that other men see with such a wide-sweeping statement? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/217 "2019-07-17T04:17:29Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Are “some” men doing that? Sure, I’m guessing they are. Perhaps prefacing your statements with “Some men” would alleviate the problems that other men see with such a wide-sweeping statement? :dubious: Where was all this concern for the particular as opposed to the general when you were making all those statements about what “women”—not “some women”—could do to reduce their chances of sexual assault? This is just more nitpicking to conceal the lack of a meaningful substantive argument on your part. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/218 "2019-07-17T04:52:30Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > _Don’t_ they, though? No, because most bosses, gym coaches, and uncles (and aunts) are not sexual predators. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/219 "2019-07-17T08:46:38Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Perhaps prefacing your statements with “Some men” would alleviate the problems that other men see with such a wide-sweeping statement? Are you, in all seriousness, NotAllMen-ing ? That’s _hilarious_! > [@nearwildheaven](#): > > No, because most bosses, gym coaches, and uncles (and aunts) are not sexual predators. How are people supposed to tell which ones are which, though? But [sure](https://slate.com/technology/2014/05/not-all-men-how-discussing-womens-issues-gets-derailed.html), you can NotAllMen(andAunts) if you like, I got enough laughter to spare. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/220 "2019-07-17T15:12:07Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > When a discussion seems to begin to hurt people, that’s when I can switch from “examining edge cases and applicability of general statements to specific scenarios” to “think about what you are saying and try not to insult people who may be victims of assault” I suggest, in future, starting there. Assume that some of your audience have been assaulted, and think about what you’re saying before saying it in the first place. If called on something you’ve already said, consider that the discussion is already hurting people. Some discussions need to be had anyway; but if so should be had with attention to phrasing – and to checking, ideally before posting, whether one’s assumptions as to what things are “factual” are correct. Other discussions don’t need to be had at all. And this particular type of discussion is one that many people have already had, over and over and over. It gets wearing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100.md?page=12)