# Is stating "Women can change their behavior to lessen their chance of sexual assault" misogynistic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2019, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100 "2019-07-15T01:25:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/241 "2019-07-18T18:21:19Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Giving advice when you haven’t been asked does control people, when it’s given in a conversation (online or in real life)… > > The last time I was sexually assaulted was on a tube train in the middle of the day. What advice could have helped with that? Don’t travel by public transport? Pretty difficult in a big city. Are you asking? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/242 "2019-07-18T18:33:47Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > That’s great and all but literally no one in this thread is arguing contrary to that. > [@octopus](#): > > If you don’t understand how in this world that there are certain times and areas where what you wear can increase the chance of assault, sexual or otherwise, I can’t help you. Sure, they’re arguing contrary to that. You, yourself are: > [@octopus](#): > > If you don’t understand how in this world that there are certain times and areas where what you wear can increase the chance of assault, sexual or otherwise, I can’t help you. Maybe you’re going to get all disingenuous and say, “Well, they shouldn’t be part of society, but they are, so how women dress can increase the chance of sexual assault,” but the basic premise, that women who dress in revealing clothes are more likely to be sexually assaulted, is false. It might be difficult to accept that if you still believe that rape is a sexually motivated crime. Here’s what I was wearing when I was sexually assaulted in a city park in a “safe” neighborhood in broad daylight: sneakers; jeans; a long-sleeved, button-down-collar blouse; a winter coat. Revealing it was not. There’s absolutely zero evidence that women who are raped are more likely to be wearing revealing clothing. None. Not at “certain times and areas,” not at any time or any area. \*It’s not the clothes. \* ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/243 "2019-07-18T18:34:39Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > I’m a man, and it always bothers me to hear people (men and women) blame women for being assaulted based on a display of flesh. Like this idiot political candidate lately, saying if women didn’t show their legs or shoulders or cleavage, they wouldn’t be assaulted. > > One, this is flat out dead wrong. Women could all wear hear to toe burkas and they would still be subjected to unwanted comments, harassment and touching. > > Two, the real issue is personal responsibility and self-control. If you can’t stop yourself from touching someone because you can see their calves, the issue isn’t them and their calves, it’s your damned lack of self-control. “But but I can see LEG!” is a stupid excuse that is really only an admission of that lack of self-control. An admission of guilt. Three, the advice often tells those people to do stuff we’re already doing. “Change their behavior” implies that we are doing risky things. “Stop dancing naked on tables”… uh… I’ve never danced naked, I’ve never danced on a table, and I certainly have never combined both. It tends to be both insulting and patronizing. Very frequently, it is also a great sample of someone trying to “solve” a situation they weren’t in; is there a single person in the world who likes having their life driven from the back seat? I’ve never met one, but oh do I know backseat drivers galore! ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/244 "2019-07-18T19:03:17Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Three, the advice often tells those people to do stuff we’re already doing. “Change their behavior” implies that we are doing risky things. “Stop dancing naked on tables”… uh… I’ve never danced naked, I’ve never danced on a table, and I certainly have never combined both. Baby, you been missing _out_. (Please, not the face, not the face, I got my glasses on !) ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/245 "2019-07-18T19:47:19Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Sure, they’re arguing contrary to that. You, yourself are: > > Maybe you’re going to get all disingenuous and say, “Well, they shouldn’t be part of society, but they are, so how women dress can increase the chance of sexual assault,” but the basic premise, that women who dress in revealing clothes are more likely to be sexually assaulted, is false. It might be difficult to accept that if you still believe that rape is a sexually motivated crime. > > Here’s what I was wearing when I was sexually assaulted in a city park in a “safe” neighborhood in broad daylight: sneakers; jeans; a long-sleeved, button-down-collar blouse; a winter coat. Revealing it was not. > > There’s absolutely zero evidence that women who are raped are more likely to be wearing revealing clothing. None. Not at “certain times and areas,” not at any time or any area. \*It’s not the clothes. \* Wrong. No one is arguing that someone deserves to be taped based on dress. That’s just not true. The debate is: is it misogynistic to advise that dress may increase chances. That’s a vastly different topic. I’m not even sure how the two concepts can be confused aside from people projecting their own biases into a point of view to see transgressions that do not exist. ---
**Author:** ![EarlGrayHot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e480ec/32.png) [@EarlGrayHot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EarlGrayHot)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/246 "2019-07-18T20:26:18Z")
I would not blame a woman’s behavior as a reason why she was assaulted . But (and as a woman) I see it as merely prudent to be alert to your surroundings and try to mitigate the danger of being assaulted by doing what you can. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/247 "2019-07-18T20:36:12Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > If you don’t understand how in this world that there are certain times and areas where what you wear can increase the chance of assault, sexual or otherwise, I can’t help you. > [@octopus](#): > > Wrong. No one is arguing that someone deserves to be taped based on dress. That’s just not true. The debate is: is it misogynistic to advise that dress may increase chances. That’s a vastly different topic. > > I’m not even sure how the two concepts can be confused aside from people projecting their own biases into a point of view to see transgressions that do not exist. Nor did I say anyone was claiming that someone _deserved to be raped_ based on dress. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re not deliberately changing the terms, an old and often ineffective means of trying to turn the tables. Yes, the OP is about whether it’s misogynistic to advise a woman that the way she dresses may increase her chances of getting raped. Since there is zero evidence it does, it’s a false premise. See how that works? And when you said > [@octopus](#): > > If you don’t understand how in this world that there are certain times and areas where what you wear can increase the chance of assault, sexual or otherwise, I can’t help you. \*\*\*you \*\*\*were not debating whether it was misogynistic. You were arguing that it does increase her chances. And you were wrong. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/248 "2019-07-18T22:44:48Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Nor did I say anyone was claiming that someone _deserved to be raped_ based on dress. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re not deliberately changing the terms, an old and often ineffective means of trying to turn the tables. > > Yes, the OP is about whether it’s misogynistic to advise a woman that the way she dresses may increase her chances of getting raped. Since there is zero evidence it does, it’s a false premise. See how that works? And when you said > > \*\*\*you \*\*\*were not debating whether it was misogynistic. You were arguing that it does increase her chances. And you were wrong. Right. That quote is part of a discussion where I’m saying that it wasn’t misogynistic if it’s an actual fact. Maybe it’s not factual. I can’t find any studies that demonstrate worldwide that dress does or does not contribute. I have a feeling that walking in a bikini in ISIS land won’t end well but I haven’t seen a study so I can’t cite something. We also know that dress does provoke regular assault. Extrapolating that, even without definitive proof, to a specific form of assault such as sexual doesn’t seem unreasonable. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/249 "2019-07-19T00:10:31Z")
> [@EarlGrayHot](#): > > I would not blame a woman’s behavior as a reason why she was assaulted . But (and as a woman) I see it as merely prudent to be alert to your surroundings and try to mitigate the danger of being assaulted by doing what you can. You wouldn’t blame her, but you’d think she wasn’t prudent? That’s kind of a narrow tightrope to walk, IMO. ETA: Men as well as women should be alert to their surroundings. That pretty drastically reduces your chances of being hit by a car, walking into a light post or wall or another person, stepping in dog shit, etc. > [@octopus](#): > > We also know that dress does provoke regular assault. Cite please? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/250 "2019-07-19T00:55:12Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > You wouldn’t blame her, but you’d think she wasn’t prudent? > That’s kind of a narrow tightrope to walk, IMO. > > ETA: Men as well as women should be alert to their surroundings. That pretty drastically reduces your chances of being hit by a car, walking into a light post or wall or another person, stepping in dog shit, etc. > > Cite please? These very boards with regards to Trump apparel. Surely, you’ve seen the posts. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/251 "2019-07-19T01:11:29Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Right. That quote is part of a discussion where I’m saying that it wasn’t misogynistic if it’s an actual fact. Maybe it’s not factual. I can’t find any studies that demonstrate worldwide that dress does or does not contribute. I have a feeling that walking in a bikini in ISIS land won’t end well but I haven’t seen a study so I can’t cite something. > > We also know that dress does provoke regular assault. Extrapolating that, even without definitive proof, to a specific form of assault such as sexual doesn’t seem unreasonable. Sexual assault is entirely different from other forms of assault. The motives are incomparable in almost all cases. You haven’t presented a single shred of evidence that, in America, wearing certain clothing increases or decreases the chance of sexual assault or rape. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/252 "2019-07-19T01:18:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Sexual assault is entirely different from other forms of assault. The motives are incomparable in almost all cases. You haven’t presented a single shred of evidence that, in America, wearing certain clothing increases or decreases the chance of sexual assault or rape. I’ve said that. Aside from the artificial restriction of limiting the idea to only the USA. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/253 "2019-07-19T01:21:25Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I’ve said that. Aside from the artificial restriction of limiting the idea to only the USA. You’ve jumped all over the place. For some reason you’re insisting on dying on a hill of unnecessary advice that would never be helpful to anyone in the real world, when women have explained again and again how this kind of pointless “advice” is offensive and denigrating, in addition to being utterly unhelpful. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/254 "2019-07-19T02:03:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’ve jumped all over the place. For some reason you’re insisting on dying on a hill of unnecessary advice that would never be helpful to anyone in the real world, when women have explained again and again how this kind of pointless “advice” is offensive and denigrating, in addition to being utterly unhelpful. There have been studies in the US but I guess that’s an artificial restriction. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/255 "2019-07-19T02:09:34Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > These very boards with regards to Trump apparel. Surely, you’ve seen the posts. Someone on these boards has physically assaulted someone else for wearing a MAGA hat? I must have missed that one. In any case, I don’t think that’s remotely relevant. The problem isn’t that people are telling women ‘don’t wear clothing saying X to that area, those words are considered insulting there.’ The problem is that people are telling women ‘don’t wear clothing that shows yourself’. And they’re doing it without any evidence that it helps. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/256 "2019-07-19T02:27:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’ve jumped all over the place. For some reason you’re insisting on dying on a hill of unnecessary advice that would never be helpful to anyone in the real world, when women have explained again and again how this kind of pointless “advice” is offensive and denigrating, in addition to being utterly unhelpful. Wrong. And not all women believe your point of view. Some give the same advice. Women are not monolithic in their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/257 "2019-07-19T02:29:08Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Wrong. And not all women believe your point of view. Some give the same advice. Women are not monolithic in their beliefs. Some women slut-shame too. Some women support Trump, even some who acknowledge that Trump has assaulted women. Some women think certain women deserve assault. None of this is new information. And it doesn’t justify your insistence on offering evidence-free, useless, and (yes) denigrating “advice”. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/258 "2019-07-19T02:33:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Some women slut-shame too. Some women support Trump, even some who acknowledge that Trump has assaulted women. Some women think certain women deserve assault. None of this is new information. > > And it doesn’t justify your insistence on offering evidence-free, useless, and (yes) denigrating “advice”. Hey, I am rethinking the utility of the advice. I still don’t think it’s misogynistic or denigrating. It’s silly to label it as such in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/259 "2019-07-19T02:39:53Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Hey, I am rethinking the utility of the advice. I still don’t think it’s misogynistic or denigrating. It’s silly to label it as such in my opinion. It’s good that you’re rethinking it. Do you also recognize that slut-shaming is an extremely negative and misogynistic aspect of our society? If so, can you see how linking revealing clothing with risk of rape, when there is no such evidence (and maybe even evidence the other way), is just another form of slut-shaming? ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2019, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/260 "2019-07-20T02:44:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Are you asking? > > Regards, > Shodan Am I asking for advice? Of course I’m not. It was clearly a rhetorical question. How could you possibly interpret it as anything else? I’m genuinely perplexed how you could possibly think that I was asking for advice on not getting assaulted on the tube. I mean, do you not think I know a little more about that you do? Even if you don’t remember my username, ergo my location, nothing about my post said “I am new to using public transport.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100.md?page=14)