# Is stating "Women can change their behavior to lessen their chance of sexual assault" misogynistic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2019, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100 "2019-07-15T01:25:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/21 "2019-07-15T02:33:35Z")
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with talking about steps one can take to mitigate risks. I make sure my house is well lit, locks are secure, and my shrubbery doesn’t obstruct the view of doors and windows from the street in order to make my house less attractive to burglars. But when my neighbor’s house is broken into I won’t tell him he could have avoided this situation it if only he did x, y, or z. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/22 "2019-07-15T02:33:39Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > If you’ve got to make statements about women changing their behavior, try recommending self-defense courses. That doesn’t come across as badly as ‘you could just spend your life hiding under the bed’; and a good one will teach situational awareness and warning signs, as well as things that can be done that don’t require locking oneself up. I don’t “got” to make statements regarding women. I do feel the need to question people who make wide sweeping statements about things that are incorrect. Well, not need per se, but responding to posters on this message board. But according to the poster to whom I was responding, your suggestion is not possible, because woman cannot change their behavior to lessen their chances of be assaulted. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/23 "2019-07-15T02:34:18Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > For the purposes of this question, can we assume that I meant “assaulted by people who don’t normally have access to them in their home”? …can you concede that in the ATMB thread you didn’t stipulate you meant “assaulted by people who don’t normally have access to them in their home”, and since you didn’t, the statement " “If a woman just stayed at home, locked in her bedroom wearing a burka, it would significantly lower her chances of being assaulted” is simply not factual? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/24 "2019-07-15T02:37:22Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …can you concede that in the ATMB thread you didn’t stipulate you meant “assaulted by people who don’t normally have access to them in their home”, and since you didn’t, the statement " “If a woman just stayed at home, locked in her bedroom wearing a burka, it would significantly lower her chances of being assaulted” is simply not factual? Only if you want to put forth the opinion that no women get assaulted outside their home. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/25 "2019-07-15T02:40:19Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So my statement was posted as a “could” and not a “should”. I, in no way, shape, or form, suggest, imply, recommend, or believe that a woman should alter her behavior to avoid sexual assault. You were being pedantic( yes, this is the pot calling the kettle black ). Needlessly pedantic, because everyone knows that staying locked in a vault your entire life will lessen the possibility of rape. It also should reduce your odds of getting skin cancer. Also living as a property-less aesthete in a monastery will lessen your odds of going bankrupt. Chopping off your hands will likely eliminate having to sit through those dire piano lessons your parents insist on. Etc. Folks jumping on you for being a misogynist were giving you credit for being something other than blankly factual. Frankly, nobody likes needless pedantry except the pedant( this is the pot speaking again ). ETA: > [@Kobal2](#): > > I guess, but then the question becomes : what’s the purpose of your saying that at all ? Also, that. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/26 "2019-07-15T02:41:05Z")
IMHO, it depends on the timing. If you tell someone _beforehand_, “If you leave your car keys in your car ignition, you run the risk of the car being stolen,” that’s pointing out that behavior increases risk. If you tell someone \*after \*their car is stolen, “Why did you leave your keys in the car?”, that seems to be shifting moral blame away from the car thief. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/27 "2019-07-15T02:41:50Z")
Women who get assaulted by partners might \*increase \*their chances of being raped by staying home in a burka (rather than being out in public with plenty of witnesses) ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/28 "2019-07-15T02:50:55Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Can a factual statement be considered “racist and misogynistic”? That seems strange to me. Are you serious? “Your breasts are beautiful” is a factual statement. Does it really seem strange to you that in some contexts it would be appropriate, but in others it would be egregiously misogynistic? You made a factual statement. Is it really so hard to grasp that the _context_ in which you made it is critical? Now, it’s a matter for debate to what degree the particular statement you made in that particular context was misogynistic. But surely you can accept that “but it was factual” is not a valid defense in itself. ---
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/29 "2019-07-15T02:54:47Z")
it is interesting- i can minimize my chances of being mugged walking down the street in a bad area by doing certain things- walking fast, talking to myself, acting annoyed, holding a hand in my pocket like I have a gun, etc. and someone telling me that would not be insulting me, and the woman scenario is similar. I think in society its just one of those things you dont say, even if there is some truth to it. Like when Bush Sr.'s wife said, in defense of son, many poor displaced by katrina actually got a better life and/or housing situation out of it- in many cases true, but seen as tacky nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/30 "2019-07-15T02:55:58Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Only if you want to put forth the opinion that no women get assaulted outside their home. That’s…that’s not how time works. That’s not how any of this works. A woman who normally spends 12 hours in a 24-hour day outside the home, and then 12 hours in the home, might decide to eliminate all her time outside the home. That doesn’t make the day 12 hours long. It means she spends more time in the home. And if the risk of assault is roughly similar whether you’re at home (where partner/relative/roommate assault can occur) or outside the home, staying at home doesn’t eliminate any risk at all. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/31 "2019-07-15T03:00:49Z")
> [@Helmut\_Doork](#): > > it is interesting- i can minimize my chances of being mugged walking down the street in a bad area by doing certain things- walking fast, talking to myself, acting annoyed, holding a hand in my pocket like I have a gun, etc. and someone telling me that would not be insulting me, and the woman scenario is similar. I think in society its just one of those things you dont say, even if there is some truth to it. Like when Bush Sr.'s wife said, in defense of son, many poor displaced by katrina actually got a better life and/or housing situation out of it- in many cases true, but seen as tacky nonetheless. Or you could never leave your home at all! That would also minimize your chances of getting mugged. Which, to be clear, is the suggestion here. Not reducing chances of sexual assault by holding your keys as a weapon, carrying pepper spray, talking to yourself or acting annoyed. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/32 "2019-07-15T03:00:50Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Needlessly pedantic, because everyone knows that staying locked in a vault your entire life will lessen the possibility of rape. Apparently not everyone, since at least one poster on this board thinks that woman cannot change their behavior to lessen their chances of being assaulted. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/33 "2019-07-15T03:01:50Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Are you serious? “Your breasts are beautiful” is a factual statement. You can’t possibly be serious with this. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/34 "2019-07-15T03:04:05Z")
> [@Helmut\_Doork](#): > > it is interesting- i can minimize my chances of being mugged walking down the street in a bad area by doing certain things- walking fast, talking to myself, acting annoyed, holding a hand in my pocket like I have a gun, etc. and someone telling me that would not be insulting me, and the woman scenario is similar. I think in society its just one of those things you dont say, even if there is some truth to it. Like when Bush Sr.'s wife said, in defense of son, many poor displaced by katrina actually got a better life and/or housing situation out of it- in many cases true, but seen as tacky nonetheless. What exactly is “interesting”? Obviously the much greater sensitivity to any appearance of victim blaming in sex crimes against women is because we have a long history of _actual_ victim blaming in sex crimes against women. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/35 "2019-07-15T03:04:26Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Nobody ever suggested that I should just stay home, or only go out drinking on the buddy system, or even decline the ever-present invitations of all the strange, luscious ladies who crave my body night after night (irresistible sex appeal being my cross to bear). The only victims of crime who \*ever \*get tut-tutted and wagged fingers at for their “behaviour” are women who get molested. That’s what misogynistic about that line of argument. It’s implicitly a form of blaming the victim, and suggesting that women being out in public living their lives are somehow Doing It Wrong. How old are you? (Approximate decade is specific enough.) Men definitely hear that now, and the idea that only female rape victims are criticized for their behavior is not true. Example: Several years ago, a young man was murdered at a now-closed strip club in my town. I know that I am not the only person who thought, “That man should not have been partying in a strip club at 3:30am, or any other time; he should have been at home with his wife and baby” and while that’s true, he didn’t deserve to die for it either. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/36 "2019-07-15T03:08:37Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s…that’s not how time works. That’s not how any of this works. > > A woman who normally spends 12 hours in a 24-hour day outside the home, and then 12 hours in the home, might decide to eliminate all her time outside the home. > > That doesn’t make the day 12 hours long. It means she spends more time in the home. > > And if the risk of assault is roughly similar whether you’re at home (where partner/relative/roommate assault can occur) or outside the home, staying at home doesn’t eliminate any risk at all. That’s a legitimate point. If the risk of assault is similar to whether you’re at home or outside the home. Anything to substantiate that? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/37 "2019-07-15T03:09:23Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > You can’t possibly be serious with this. Well, with your selective quote I see that you’re taking care to avoid the substance of the point I made. Were _you_ serious in the suggestion in your OP that if a statement is factual it cannot be racist or misogynistic? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/38 "2019-07-15T03:11:00Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Well, with your selective quote I see that you’re taking care to avoid the substance of the point I made. > > Were _you_ serious in the suggestion in your OP that if a statement is factual it cannot be racist or misogynistic? Of course I’m serious. But “Your breasts are beautiful” is not a factual statement. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/39 "2019-07-15T03:11:29Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > That’s a legitimate point. If the risk of assault is similar to whether you’re at home or outside the home. Anything to substantiate that? No. But the point is, your claim was not a “simple fact.” It’s complicated, and not necessarily factual. ---
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/40 "2019-07-15T03:18:37Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > What exactly is “interesting”? Obviously the much greater sensitivity to any appearance of victim blaming in sex crimes against women is because we have a long history of _actual_ victim blaming in sex crimes against women. interesting in that such suggestions are deemed wrong in society, I think because they seem to be assumed to be based on the premise of ‘women, you make guys do this, here is how to not make make innocent men assualt you’, when the premise is better thought as 'women, there are horrible assholes out there, always will be, even though nothing you could possibly do warrants assault, here is how to help avoid being the victim of an asshole"? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100.md?page=3)