# Is stating "Women can change their behavior to lessen their chance of sexual assault" misogynistic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2019, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100 "2019-07-15T01:25:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/41 "2019-07-15T03:18:46Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Of course I’m serious. But “Your breasts are beautiful” is not a factual statement. How about “your breasts are really big!” To a woman who in fact has significantly larger than average breasts? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/42 "2019-07-15T03:19:08Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Of course I’m serious. But “Your breasts are beautiful” is not a factual statement. Sure it is. Are you suggesting that whether it’s misogynistic depends upon whether it’s _true_, rather than whether it’s an _appropriate_ comment in context? If so, I think that’s at the heart of the problem you’re having with all this. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/43 "2019-07-15T03:21:49Z")
> [@manson1972](#): > > I was simply responding to the poster who said "The claim “it is a simple fact that the woman can reduce her chances of being assaulted significantly by changing her behavior” is not a “simple fact.” > > Seems like a simple fact to me. I think you’re being a bit deliberately obtuse here. Remember, according to your link (for which thank you, btw), this discussion took place in the context of **SamuelA** ’s analogy to German Jews’ reducing their chances of being genocided by ceasing to be Jewish: > [@SamuelA](#): > > You could advise a young woman who goes to frat parties and gets drunk to ‘stop being so rape-able’. This doesn’t make the frat boys not criminals but it is a simple fact that the woman can reduce her chances of being assaulted significantly by changing her behavior. If it was possible for Jewish Germans to assimilate and make themselves not targets it’s a valid and compelling thing to do. Regardless of the criminal guilt of their government. With regard to which, **GreysonCarlisle** remarked: > [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > It’s a perfectly valid debate, so long as it stays away from victim blaming, which the poster took pains to avoid in both aspects (the rape part and the Jewish part). > > So no, I don’t see it as beyond the pale, trolling, or even being a jerk. To which **Banquet Bear** replied: > [@Banquet Bear](#): > > The claim “it is a simple fact that the woman can reduce her chances of being assaulted significantly by changing her behavior” is not a “simple fact.” You may not see it as “beyond the pale, trolling, or even being a jerk”, but you will find that many on these boards will disagree with your opinion, including me. So, to recap the rape discussion, leaving the attempted analogy with genocide out of it: - **SamuelA** is treating the legally and socially acceptable activity of getting drunk at a frat party as an irresponsible choice to “be rape-able” when it’s a young woman who does it. Although he acknowledges that it’s criminal for “frat boys” to rape the woman in those circumstances, the only person whose behavior he’s actually pushing to change is that of the young woman who’s doing nothing illegal nor harming anyone. - **GreysonCarlisle** doesn’t think that’s “victim blaming”, because **SamuelA** acknowledged that the criminal behavior is on the part of the rapist(s). - **Banquet Bear** disagrees, pointing out that the emphasis on heavy disapproval of the woman’s (legal and harmless) behavior puts the remarks into “jerkish” or “trolling” territory (on which I tend to agree with him, btw). - You in this thread, **manson1972** are trying to decontextualize that discussion to make it look as though the issue is simply whether it’s factually true that a woman can significantly reduce her chances of being assaulted by changing her behavior. As other posters have pointed out, even that artificially isolated statement isn’t such an open-and-shut issue as you’re trying to argue. In any case, I think it’s pretty clear that the point **Banquet Bear** was making was a critique of **SamuelA** ’s post as heavily implying a victim-scolding attitude, rather than being a mere neutral unbiased observation. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/44 "2019-07-15T03:24:02Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Sure it is. Are you suggesting that whether it’s misogynistic depends upon whether it’s _true_, rather than whether it’s an _appropriate_ comment in context? If so, I think that’s at the heart of the problem you’re having with all this. No, (and at the risk of objectifying breasts), whether or not breasts are beautiful is not factual. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/45 "2019-07-15T03:27:44Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > As other posters have pointed out, even that artificially isolated statement isn’t such an open-and-shut issue as you’re trying to argue. In any case, I think it’s pretty clear that the point **Banquet Bear** was making was a critique of **SamuelA** ’s post as heavily implying a victim-scolding attitude, rather than being a mere neutral unbiased observation. I’m not even going to touch whatever **SamuelA** was talking about. My feelings on him can be discerned by reading BBQ Pit posts. I read Banquet Bear’s quote as a direct thought on what women can or cannot do. My response to him was hyperbole to show the ridiculousness of his statement. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/46 "2019-07-15T03:29:51Z")
> [@Helmut\_Doork](#): > > when the premise is better thought as 'women, there are horrible assholes out there, always will be […]" Still problematic. The assumption that men’s criminal violence against women—and not just on the part of very rare dangerous-sociopath men, but typical men a woman might encounter anywhere—is just an inevitable and accepted fact of life, and women need to constantly adjust and police their own behavior to try to avoid this constant threat of criminal violence from ordinary men, is in itself pretty sexist and misogynistic. How about we try adopting a premise more like _‘women, there are horrible assholes out there, and our society has to a large extent normalized and tolerated horrible-asshole criminal violence against women by treating rape as a joke or a natural phenomenon or an inevitable impersonal risk like bad weather. So we need to change our attitudes and teach men not to assume that being a horrible asshole by assaulting women is basically okay’_? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/47 "2019-07-15T03:30:45Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No. But the point is, your claim was not a “simple fact.” It’s complicated, and not necessarily factual. Here is a link about sexual assault. And it shows that 45% of sexual assaults occur outside the home. So yeah, staying home “could” reduce the number of sexual assaults that occur. Forgot the link: [link](https://www.rainn.org/statistics/scope-problem) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/48 "2019-07-15T03:36:29Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Here is a link about sexual assault. And it shows that 45% of sexual assaults occur outside the home. So yeah, staying home “could” reduce the number of sexual assaults that occur. > > Forgot the link: [link](https://www.rainn.org/statistics/scope-problem) What? WHAT??? If 45% of fatal head injuries occur outside the home, do I lower my risk of head injury by staying at home? Dude. Your “simple fact” is anything but. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/49 "2019-07-15T03:37:11Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m not even going to touch whatever SamuelA was talking about. […] > > I read Banquet Bear’s quote as a direct thought on what women can or cannot do. My response to him was hyperbole to show the ridiculousness of his statement. Well, given that **Banquet Bear** was explicitly talking about what **SamuelA** said, it seems kind of wilfully ignorant to disregard that context in favor of insisting _“hey, when I consider this response completely out of context I can interpret it in a way that seems ridiculous”_. :dubious: I mean, no shit, Einstein, sure you can. Likewise, when I hear a Frenchman saying _“Merci”_ and consider his remark completely out of its linguistic context, I can interpret it to mean that the Frenchman is begging for mercy. But it would be more intelligent on my part to try to consider his remark _in_ context, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/50 "2019-07-15T03:42:22Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > What? WHAT??? > > If 45% of fatal head injuries occur outside the home, do I lower my risk of head injury by staying at home? > > Dude. > > Your “simple fact” is anything but. what? WHAT? Of course you lower your risk of head injury if 45% of them occurred outside side the home and you stayed home. Do you think I would lower my chances of dying in a car accident if I never stepped foot in a car? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/51 "2019-07-15T03:45:59Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > How old are you? (Approximate decade is specific enough.) Getting too old for this shit, not old enough to retire. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/52 "2019-07-15T03:47:12Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, given that **Banquet Bear** was explicitly talking about what **SamuelA** said, it seems kind of wilfully ignorant to disregard that context in favor of insisting _“hey, when I consider this response completely out of context I can interpret it in a way that seems ridiculous”_. This is what he said: "The claim “it is a simple fact that the woman can reduce her chances of being assaulted significantly by changing her behavior” is not a “simple fact.” I’m not sure what context I could take that except “a woman cannot reduce her chances of being assaulted significantly by changing her behavior” How about this: Do you, **Kimstu** , think that a women can reduce her chances of being sexually assaulted by altering her behavior? It’s a yes or no question. Answer “yes” or “no” ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/53 "2019-07-15T03:47:17Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > what? WHAT? Of course you lower your risk of head injury if 45% of them occurred outside side the home and you stayed home. > > Do you think I would lower my chances of dying in a car accident if I never stepped foot in a car? All I can think here is - maybe you should come back to this thread when you’re sober. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/54 "2019-07-15T03:50:48Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > All I can think here is - maybe you should come back to this thread when you’re sober. All I can think is maybe a person who thinks “Your breasts are beautiful” is a factual statement should leave this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/55 "2019-07-15T03:53:11Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I read Banquet Bear’s quote as a direct thought on what women can or cannot do. …that was the first of many mistakes you have made. > [@](#): > > My response to him was hyperbole to show the ridiculousness of his statement. An admission of hyperbole seems in conflict with your repeated claims that your assertions were a “simple fact.” Perhaps you should dial back on the hyperbole and stick with the simple facts you can actually prove. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/56 "2019-07-15T03:57:47Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Because another poster said that behavior can’t be altered to lessen the chances. And I rebutted him. That’s the only reason. That’s just moving the question one turtle down. Or do you feel an Romulan mathematician struggling with Asperger’s’ compulsion to fact check every non-strictly-factual assertion you come across ? I’m going to assume no. Which brings us to : why feel the need to rebut that particular one, in that particular manner ? What’s your purpose in the rebuttal ? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/57 "2019-07-15T03:59:29Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > This is what he said: "The claim “it is a simple fact that the woman can reduce her chances of being assaulted significantly by changing her behavior” is not a “simple fact.” …yep. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure what context I could take that except “a woman cannot reduce her chances of being assaulted significantly by changing her behavior” The context you took it in is incorrect. > [@](#): > > How about this: Do you, **Kimstu** , think that a women can reduce her chances of being sexually assaulted by altering her behavior? It’s a yes or no question. Answer “yes” or “no” It isn’t a yes or no question. ---
**Author:** ![Helmut\_Doork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e8c25b/32.png) [@Helmut\_Doork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helmut_Doork)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/58 "2019-07-15T04:00:07Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Or you could never leave your home at all! That would also minimize your chances of getting mugged. > > Which, to be clear, is the suggestion here. Not reducing chances of sexual assault by holding your keys as a weapon, carrying pepper spray, talking to yourself or acting annoyed. Carry on then! (I took that suggestion in the OP as figurative not literal- apologies if I was in error)🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/59 "2019-07-15T04:00:33Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Because **another poster** said that behavior can’t be altered to lessen the chances. And I rebutted him. That’s the only reason. …which poster are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/60 "2019-07-15T04:00:45Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …that was the first of many mistakes you have made. > > An admission of hyperbole seems in conflict with your repeated claims that your assertions were a “simple fact.” Perhaps you should dial back on the hyperbole and stick with the simple facts you can actually prove. Fair enough. I’m used to using hyperbole to show how ridiculous a poster’s wide sweeping general statements are, but I guess I can use specific to basic facts to rebut your statement. “You are wrong. People, including women, can alter their behavior to avoid unwanted outcomes” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100.md?page=4)